Thoughts beyond words.

It's been a long year already. Has it been many years that I've lived already? I feel kind of old all of a sudden. A lot of older people who I saw, who I knew as a kid are dead.

I would like to write these words here, of the thoughts that come to my mind; so perhaps, I will feel free of them. Perhaps I will understand these thoughts this way. Perhaps this way I will understand the feelings associated with these thoughts. Or are the thoughts born of emotion, that is, is it because I feel this way that I am thinking. You are the audience to which I have no reserve.

To see those you love to wither away. I'm thinking about my Grandfather. He is my father. He brought me up, my father was never there, neither was my mother. To this day I have virtually no relationship with my father and mother. As the years go by I feel he's less present than before, sometimes. He's approaching 90. He doesn’t come online anymore on MSN in the mornings when he wakes up. It's about 05:00 his time, and here it's earlier, but I always liked talking to him when he wakes up. Someitmes I have to repeat what I have said many times so he understands, he listens but sometimes he does not understand anymore.

I remember when I was teenager; I’d be gaming all night. In the morning about 05:00 I’d hear my Grandad walking upstairs to go sit on the balcony with his tea and look at the hills and the sunrise. And then I'd sit with him on the balcony, looking at the hills we'd sip Lapsang Souchong together and talk about the evolution of man, about the British empire, about love and women, about rationalism, about sincerity, about democracy, willpower, what makes us different from the other animals, why we are here, the meaning of our lives, the coming information age, warfare, poitics, economics, fiscal policies and many many other topics. We'd have our intellectual debates far before we begun our day.

I'm scared and sad, but for what reason. Am I so selfish that I am sad for myself? that one day he will not be there any more. That I will not be able to communicate with him anymore. I don’t understand why I feel sad, he has lived a great life, a life that 99.9% of people on this planet right now have never lived. He has represented the state, the military; he has achieved things in his life that most of humanity have not achieved in generations. Being the first person in India to translate the theory of relativity from German to English, being the 2nd Muslim ever to enter the British administration as a high ranking official, were among his achievements in his youth. To serve his country selflessly. He was so honest and hardworking they wrote about him in the newspapers. So what have I to be sad about? I don’t know.

Perhaps I'm sad that after his passing I will truly and finally and truly be alone.

I am sad that I will be alone, that I will lose my best friend, how selfish am I to feel only my loss. How despicable am I.

He always told me we are ultimately always alone. All this invokes a response in me, I feel extremely motivated. I'm not any high achiever, but this invokes in me, on a fundamental level, something I cannot describe. Here I am of foreign orgin in a country that I call my own, in a continent that I call my own. Yet my thoughts seem to be going back hundreds of years, when my ancestors settled in Asia, perhaps what they may have thought of as they entered this new land. I think only of my future, of my family, of my legacy of what I will leave behind. Will I ever have kids, and who will they be how will they remember me... how willl this society remember me, how will they remember my forefathers, my Grandfather, my ancestors and whence I came. Was I ever an adult before this day.

So many questions race through my mind to which I have no answers

I know only that I am male and I am strong, I know only that I will go on and I will strive that maybe generations form now others will remember us, these foreigners who came here and the achievements they left behind.

I hope that one day I will be remembered like him, to be a great man, who gave everything he had for everyone else. I hope one day my children will remember me as a man such as him, who loved them no matter what they did.

I hope that, every woman I have loved will remember me as a caring and kind man. For those women who cannot speak of me I hope that in their hearts and minds they will remember me, and they will always grow and feel nurtured from the kindness and love that I shared with them.

Thank you for listening.

Wow. Deep. Honestly, I wish I had words of wisdom for you, but I simply am not that wise. Good luck with your hopes and goals.

I don't think it's selfish to be sad for about losing someone who raised you and was like a father to you. It's normal human emotion to be sad if something like what you said happens to someone.

Like khaan I don't really have any wise words for you, but I do know that someone will always be watching over you no matter how hard it gets or how lonely you get.... :bow:

Sinan, you are a very lucky man to have such a relationship with your grandfather. It is not selfish or despicable to want to hold onto something so cherished as what you have with him. I have "known" you here at the Org for several years and have always had great respect for you. If your Org personality is but a shadow of your true self and you are a reflection of your grandfather, then he truly must be a great man.

I hope that you will be able to communicate with him right up to his last days. I wasn't so fortunate with my grandparents, so I wish you both the best. :bow:

To steal yet another quote: A dying man's death is hardly his own affair. Point is that death and dying is a part of life. Life is what's important. That's the true importance of things like life insurance and books, something for the living. A dead man does not care about those he leaves behind, but the living care about those they've lost. Feeling nothing is far worse than selfish desire because you really want to keep close to you, those you care about the most.

I'm not sure if he's written any books, but I hope he has. It may be too late for an oral history but he must have some papers and it seems that many know him. If you want to honor him, put his thoughts and deeds in writing to tell the living that he has done and share what you feel. Sharing is the only way to defeat selfishness.





Ok, call me heartless but you may be able to make some money out of the deal too. You're not dragging a dead man thru the mud but celebrating his life. Extra coin makes for a better celebration.

A gem amongst the posts this morning as I wake. Thanks for being brave and sharing your thoughts Sinan. It made me think about my own father (with whom I've luckily had a good relationship) and the way time is bringing him closer to when he departs this life. I always thought of him as immortal (and I think he did too until a couple of years ago) but eventually even the best of us have to go.

Best wishes to you.

What wonderful thoughts.

I'm sorry the situation is making you unhappy, but look at the eloquence and thoughtfulness the situation is bringing out of of you. We require a certain amount of pain and suffering in our lives to progress, and you look to be near an evolution of thinking that will change you significantly.

After watching both my parents die of brain cancer, one a year after the other, in a long drawn out affair that utterly sapped them of their intellect, I admit to having felt a freedom, a new found individuality. Yes, I was alone, so to speak, but with that came an undeniable feeling of being alive in the world, responsible for myself and my surroundings, and, oddly, somewhat like a marionette with the strings cut. The loss, though painful, absolutely elevated me to a different level of life. With that came new thoughts and new ways of thinking. Also, an odd and ongoing duty to represent their influence on me in my own way in the day to day scheme of things.

Never feel bad about feeling sorry for yourself when someone close dies. It's our nature, and it shows you had the heart to let someone in. Believe me, when you pass from here to there, I'm sure there will be those who will feel very bad for themselves.

As to your post, it is our pleasure to listen.

Don't know much about you, but I do know that pain and suffering will make a person greater, Sinan. Or they at least have the possibility to change one significantly (in different ways). Through pain and suffering one might achieve -- as put forth by Beirut -- progression, whether this progression is great or small, slow or fast -- though it doesn't have to be progression even... it can be anything. It depends on both the situation and the personality of the person in question.

You appear like a person of good intellect, so I'll try to spare you philosophies in your thread.


To address the "selfishness" you spoke of:
If you are sad for the loss, because you'd be alone, we could say that yes indeed it is based on it. But even if this's so there's no shame therein, and there doesn't have to be disgust or something like that. You are not necessarily despicable for it if it's the case.


Well, what can be done? It is nature, and it will always be nature -- dying, etc. Some people actually close off emotions or "get rid of them" but many would find this heartless / cold. But it can be undeniably effective, for one'd have more chance of preventing suffering, for whatever situation, as suffering is based on these emotions and desires.


I say, if his passing occurs, don't regret or be too upset. Be not sad for being alone, for you'll find others if this worries you a lot, and ultimately we are actually -- indeed -- alone. But most importantly: be not sad for his future absence, but be glad for his past presence.

Looking back will break you down : looking forward will build you up. However, sometimes it differs.


I hope my post makes sense to you, and that it facilitates you in a beneficial consolidating way :)



And PS:
My apologies for any incoherency (if at all): sleep is something I've forgotten the meaning of.

Substance. Nice. Thank you, Sinan.

Your words do great honor to your Grandfather. As words are, at best, a limited representation of our thoughts, our Heart ... *bows*

I hope you won't think me presumptuous as I share a few thoughts and experiences that relate somewhat to what you've written.

I don't think you are selfish in feeling sad, or worrying. I think it's great that you question the motives behind your feelings and thoughts. I hope you won't be too hard on yourself. It sounds as if your Grandfather has added tremendous value to your life. It is no surprise then, the level of attachment that you feel.

It took a while for me to overcome the attachment to my mother when she passed away. I was 28. The effects of the abruptly broken and most significant attachment clouded my thoughts and actions for some time. When enough time passed, the attachment faded, and I was able to consider my loss clearly. Now, to honor her, I try to incorporate the values which I so admired in her into my life. I try to help others selflessly, just as she helped me, my brother, my father, and so many others. If I bother to do a thing, I do my damndest to do it "right." I try to live my life in a way that would give her reason to smile. I rarely feel the intense sadness now when I think of her. I feel gratitude, respect, love--sometimes even happiness, when I know I've handled myself in difficult situations in ways she would appreciate. In a sense, she lives on--in me.

I will be forgotten after I die. Billions won't even know I existed. Thousands have known me, but have already forgotten, or will forget before I'm dead. This is of little consequence. What's important to me is that I honestly feel good about the life I've lived--that I added value.

I think some questions aren't meant to be answered. I also think there are many questions our minds cannot answer. These answers are found in the Heart. The trouble I have is quieting my mind, learning how to "contemplate" in a different way.

Perhaps someday you'll be able to do what your Grandfather has done for you for someone else.

What you are looking forward is terrible, but you will look back with a smile. It just takes a while, you will manage. Wish I could do better.

And no, you are not being selfish.

It is not selfish to grieve. Grief is something natural in all humans. It is necessary for us to continue with our lives. So grieve, allow yourself to do this. But at the same time, do not be so taken up with grieving that you forget what your Grandfather would truly want you to do, be happy.

Do not forget the truly great times that it sounded like you had with your Grandfather. Find a way to make them last. Perhaps write them down or something, find a way to honour those great memories he has given you. That is what I would do.

However, I am only speaking form theory here. I, fortunately, have not experienced what you are describing.

I cannot offer you any more than empty words, reiterations of what has already been said, but that I will do.

I cannot say to have experienced what you describe - my bond with my grandparents is not close in the way that yours is - but can tell you, as others have, that death is the necessary and normal conclusion to life, and that you should not be afraid to face what everyone in your position has to.

No, it doesn't make it any easier. And nothing will make it any easier for some time to come. But in the end, after he has gone, you will, at least, have the memories of your relationship with your grandfather, memories that you so ovbiously cherish.

You cannot be him; a man can be but himself. But by living as he would have wanted you to, by acting according to the values he believed in, you can ensure that he lives on through you.

And when you sit down at night, or in the morning, he'll be with you in memories. You won't ever be alone. If you have children, you can pass the legacy along one more time, as it was passed on to you.

Your sadness is not something to be ashamed of, it is something to remember, and to treasure what it represents.

No one lives forever. That is life. It is into the future that you must look, to take yourself forward, but to never forget from whence and whomn you came.

:bow:

I can't say much more...

I guess all that I have besides that is this: It's all the reason you need to make sure that you really make the best of it while you still have it.

Yes. My Grandfather is 95, bowls once a week, chairs the senior citizen's bridge club, does the accounting for his church, and writes an update to all of us once a week via e-mail. He lives alone, cares for himself, and maintains his large house.

The thing he mentioned about being in his position in life is that he believes it is very important to be physically and particularly--mentally active. Most of his close friends have passed on, and he has taken to heart that many did not do this in their last years.

Kanamori has a great point. If you are in a position to engage him like you used to, in stimulating conversation, taking walks, etc., taking on projects that are within his scope of capability, perhaps that would help you both. And best of all, it would maximize the time you have left. Best of times to both of you.

Thanks for the support, Gentlemen. I appreciate it.

Grandfather and Sinan.

Edit... I'm gonna stop wandering back over here when I am extremely drunk. Bad things happen.

And no, there was nothing rude here, just... pointless.