Shieldwalls and Schiltroms in EB timeframe

Hi,

after putting EB working with BI, I made some experiences in the Custom Battles and now I have some doubts to share with you and get some hints/info:

- I made most Sweboz units able to make shielwall (I chose units with at least a shield of 4)

- I made the Frankamannoz able to make schiltrom (they have spears and a weak shield 2)

In the costum battles, I put Prodromoi heavy cavalry against a shieldwall and a schiltrom. They went for the schiltrom (weaker infantry) but rounded it several times before charging. The schiltrom held firm and the cavalty kept disengaging and charging again until they found the odds too low to charge again and just loitered around, now reduced to 1/4 of their cavalrymen.


In another custom battle I put the IA in control of the same Sweboz as above and I used the Prodromoi and a unit of archers to force the IA to use the shieldwall. It didn't :-(
but the Frankamannoz did use the schiltrom formation when the Prodromoi aproached them :-)


In yet another custom battle I put 20 shieldwall-capable units against 20 units of archers. I put 15 units in the shieldwall formation and the others in the standard formation. The archers concentrated their fire in the units not in shieldwall who nearly got massacred before I put them in shieldwall. This time the archers moved closer to the formations and fired at close range. The shieldwalls held firm until some of the archers moved to the rear side of my battleline, forcing me to break the formation and charge them. The archers were too close to avoid and were massacred.

My next test will be to change sides and hope that the Sweboz use the shieldwalls to defend against the archers. I'll edit the results later ;-)


Now, my doubts are:

1. In the timeframe covered by EB it is acceptable to have units using the schiltrom formation? Although the "real" schiltrom is used by pikemen in defensive formation in later periods, I think that any "real life" unit too weak to face an overwhelming attack from several sides will try to make a kind of "schiltrom", in order to increase its chances of survival.

2. If you accept question 1, then which units should be able to make schiltrom? I reckon that only the "barbarian" factions should use them, because roman and hellenistic factions relied on disciplined formations. In this case, I believe that only barbarian units with Discipline "low" or "normal" and Training "untrained" or "trained" should make schiltrom, because the others should be better used in the shieldwall.

3. Some units in EB have described that they can perform Shieldwall, but in fact any unit can perform shieldwall or schiltrom. So, where this description came from? Most hoplites who don't use the phalanx formation have this description and a few Sweboz too (I didn't check all units).

Thanks for your comments on this.

The "can form shieldwall" unit description normally refers to the so-called "EB pseudoshieldwall" - see here.

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Originally Posted by JMRC

2. If you accept question 1, then which units should be able to make schiltrom? I reckon that only the "barbarian" factions should use them, because roman and hellenistic factions relied on disciplined formations. In this case, I believe that only barbarian units with Discipline "low" or "normal" and Training "untrained" or "trained" should make schiltrom, because the others should be better used in the shieldwall.

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Why should the schiltrom only be a formation for undiscipilined troops? As you mentioned it very natural and useful sometimes. Actually Sallust mentions one occassion in the Jugurthine war when Roman soldiers formed a schiltrom like formation when beeing ambushed and encircled.

Bellum Jugurthinum 97:

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Neither valor nor armor gave any real security, our men were outnumbered by their enemy and surrounded on every side. At last the Romans [whose knowledge, as a body, of war, was increased by the present mixture of] veterans and recruits, formed in rings, as chance, or the nature of the ground threw them together, and being in this way sheltered and in good order on every side, beat off the enemy's attack.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by cunctator

Why should the schiltrom only be a formation for undiscipilined troops? As you mentioned it very natural and useful sometimes. Actually Sallust mentions one occassion in the Jugurthine war when Roman soldiers formed a schiltrom like formation when beeing ambushed and encircled.

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Because if they are disciplined, I think they would be more useful in a shieldwall formation. However, maybe only the Training variable makes sense in this choice (EDU states that the "Training determines how tidy the unit's formation is", so a well trained unit will behave better in a shieldwall. I think...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cunctator

Why should the schiltrom only be a formation for undiscipilined troops? As you mentioned it very natural and useful sometimes. Actually Sallust mentions one occassion in the Jugurthine war when Roman soldiers formed a schiltrom like formation when beeing ambushed and encircled.

Bellum Jugurthinum 97:

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But we can't give legions both tortoise and schiltrom right? I think every troop is only allowed 1 special formation? Is that right?

Sadly yes. The only one "special formation" per units, it is even called special ability in R:TW as in any RTS, where units just have such things for gameplay reasons, not to simulate their historic capabilities.

I only gave the polybian Triarii the schiltrom formation in my personal version. For me it seems to be more usefull if the Hastati and Principes are routed/had to retreat and I like to have all tactical possibilities of their historic counterparts somewhere in my armies.

I think M2TW can have more than one special abilitiy, or is that just the trebuchets?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cunctator

Sadly yes. The only one "special formation" per units, it is even called special ability in R:TW as in any RTS, where units just have such things for gameplay reasons, not to simulate their historic capabilitie

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Not 100% sure, but I don't think it's 'one special formation', but that a unit can only have 2 formations ie- square and schiltron or square and wedge.

I don't think that 'square' is compulsory though, so you could have shieldwall and schiltron as a units two possible formations.....I think.....

Cheers,

Quilts

It is possible to have two specials. SPQR has roman units capable of shield wall and testudo .

I was under the impression leaving units without a "normal" formation - square or horde - tended to have annoying side effects though.

They probably do present problems if not thought through.

For instance the SPQR example- In shieldwall they will move pretty slow, also in Testudo, so if that is their 2 formations then your Romans are going to move SLOW without exception.

Don't know how, or if, they got around that in SPQR.....

Cheers,

Quilts