ROMANI: wierd thiings ingame

:ave:

I will like to tell you some consideration that comes from playing a Romani campaign with EB 0.81a. I admit that i have no idea if some of them have been already posted somewhere else, however in such case i apologise


1- I find very irritating to see german mercenaries available in north and central italy. they never crossed the alps - in this period, i mean. they should be wiped out from that mercenary pool.

2- Epeiros' hold on Taras should be a bit weaker, since they actually surrended without fight. I will like to suggest also a wonderous building there - the giant statue of bronze, of 17 mt high, built in his last years by Lysippos, the same Lysippos who was so kindly regarded by Alexander the Great. it represented Zeus in the act of throw a lightning, and an eagle. When the city was conquered, the statue was removed and bring to rome to be put in the roman forum.

3- is pretty wierd that, to get plybian reworm, i should have conquered at least half sicily and north italy but not also the provinces of Taras and Rhegion. i guess those two provinces should be included too, because strategically romans could not held sicily without rhegium.
Also, i will like to mention that in the starting time of the mod, the brettium was almost all in roman's hands, Rhegium first, who asked for roman help against the local population, the bruzi, in 351 BC, thus becoming rome's ally. In 361 the city, in the full hands of rome, was awarded the condition of Civitas Foederata - a type 4 government, that is :)
So the question is: do romans should own rhegium (with an high risk of revolt, as it was) or rhwgium should be continued to be set as independendent but with a roman army closer?

4- once i get plybian reform i'm rather surprised by the fact that, as your faq also tells, i can train roman soldiers from the ex-barbarian populations of north italy but not from a civilized sicily. i find it wierd, and i think i should be able to build a type 1 government also there. i find it very irritating, since romans governed sicily as part of their territory and trained troops from there.

5- a little point on Patavium: it was not a gaul settlement, but instead one of the Veneti. they were a population of italic descent, cut away from gaulish invasion, and with also an interesting mixed weaponry, made of a mix of celtic and illyrian things. please look here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...77&postcount=9 and you will have a better idea.

3. The controll sicily and northern Italy requirement should make sure that the romani have fought the carthaginians with their various mercanaries, the celts and get access to some of their craftsman, since equippment that wass probaly adapted from this people (gladius hispaniensis, chain mail) is introduced with the polybian "reforms" thereafter. Also as you mentioned it is highly unlikely that the romani can conquer sicily without controlling Tras and Rhegion first, thusit's not necessary to have them as extra requirements.


In 272 BC Rhegium was controlled by group of renegade roman soldiers lead by Decius Jubellius from Campania. Originally they were send there as garrison during PYrrhus invasion but they expelled most inhabitants later. The romans had to siege them after the fall of Taras to liberate the city. The survivors were later executed at the forum romanum. In 1.0 they will be properly represented in game.

Polybius text from Perseus:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ok=1:chapter=7

From Book 1.6 and 7

Quote:

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Accordingly, they entered upon the war with spirit, drove Pyrrhus from Italy, and then undertook to fight with and subdue those who had taken part with him. They succeeded everywhere to a marvel, and reduced to obedience all the tribes inhabiting Italy except the Celts; after which they undertook to besiege some of their own citizens, who at that time were occupying Rhegium.

.....

The speed with which they became masters of a fair territory and city found ready imitators of their conduct. The people of Rhegium, when Pyrrhus was crossing to Italy, felt a double anxiety. They were dismayed at the thought of his approach, and at the same time were afraid of the Carthaginians as being masters of the sea. They accordingly asked and obtained a force from Rome to guard and support them. The garrison, four thousand in number, under the command of a Campanian named Decius Jubellius, entered the city, and for a time preserved it, as well as their own faith. But at last, conceiving the idea of imitating the Mamertines, and having at the same time obtained their co-operation, they broke faith with the people of Rhegium, enamoured of the pleasant site of the town and the private wealth of the citizens, and seized the city after having, in imitation of the Mamertines, first driven out some of the people and put others to the sword. Now, though the Romans were much annoyed at this transaction, they could take no active steps, because they were deeply engaged in the wars I have mentioned above. But having got free from them they invested and besieged the troops. They presently took the place and killed the greater number in the assault,—for the men resisted desperately, knowing what must follow,—but took more than three hundred alive. These were sent to Rome, and there the Consuls brought them into the forum, where they were scourged and beheaded according to custom: for they wished as far as they could to vindicate their good faith in the eyes of the allies. The territory and town they at once handed over to the people of Rhegium.

---

or the story in Cassius Dio Book 9 and 10, he also mention that the city wasn't restored to it's original inhabitants until after the fall of Taras:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...us_Dio/9*.html
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...s_Dio/10*.html

Quote:

---

The Rhegians had asked the Romans for a garrison, and Decius was the leader of it. But the majority of these guards, as a result of the abundance of supplies and the generally easy habits — for they were under far less rigid discipline than they had known at home — and at the instigation of Decius, formed the desire to kill the foremost Rhegians and occupy the city. It seemed as if they might be quite free to accomplish whatever they pleased, now that the Romans were busied with the Tarentines and with Pyrrhus. They were the more easily persuaded owing to the fact that they saw Messana in the possession of the Mamertines. The latter, who were Campanians and had been appointed to garrison the place by Agathocles, the lord of Sicily, had slaughtered the inhabitants and occupied the city. The conspirators did not, however, make their attempt openly, since they were decidedly inferior in numbers. Instead, Decius forged letters purporting to have been written to Pyrrhus by some citizens with a view to the betrayal of the Romans; he even assembled the soldiers and read these to them, stating that they had been intercepted, and by addressing them in words appropriate to the occasion he exasperated them still further. The effect was enhanced by the announcement of a man, who had been assigned to the rôle, that a portion of Pyrrhus' fleet had anchored off the coast, having come for a conference with the traitors. Others, who had been instructed, magnified the matter, and shouted out that they must anticipate the Rhegians before they met with some harm, and that the traitors, ignorant of what was being done, would find it difficult to resist them. So some rushed into their lodging-places, and others broke into the houses and slaughtered great numbers; but a few had been invited to dinner by Decius and were slain there.

11 Decius, the commander of the garrison, after slaying the Rhegians, ratified friendship with the Mamertines, thinking that the similar nature of their outrages would render them most trustworthy allies. He was well aware that a great many men find the ties resulting from some common transgression stronger to unite them than the obligations of lawful association or the bonds of kinship.

.......

When the Romans had thus secured control of Tarentum, they turned their attention to Rhegium, whose inhabitants, after taking Croton by treachery, had razed the city to the ground and had slain the Romans who were there. They averted the danger that threatened them from the side of the Mamertines in possession of Messana, whom the people of Rhegium were expecting to secure as allies, by coming to an agreement with them; but in the siege of Rhegium they suffered hardships because of the scarcity of food, among other reasons, until Hiero by sending them grain and soldiers from Sicily strengthened their hands and aided them in capturing the city. The place was restored to the survivors among the original inhabitants, while those who had plotted against it were punished.

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4. After the polybian reforms you can't train roman soldiers from the ex-barbarian populations yet, but from the the inhabitants of roman colonies founded in the Po Valley and elsewhere following roman conquest of the area. Sicily was governed as a province, (the first territory with this kind of administration) not in the same way as Italy with a system of "allied" states and colonies.

5. Patavium is already treated as homeland region while Medionlanum is not, to reflect different populations. I don't know if there are any extra regional units planned for patavium.

In our newest internal build we have Rhegion in Roman rebel sub faction hands, so yes, we have fixed that part.

very good :)

i perfectly know the roman rebel issue, but i was looking at rhegion helded by a sub-greek faction units :) it was this i meant when i said "roman with high revolt risk", and the rebel settlement with a closer roman army it was meant to represent - as possible - roman holdings on the rest of brettian paeninsula.

also, i know that sicily was a roman province - maybe i was wrong in explaining that i think that, even if type 2 gov, it should nonetheless be able to train polybian units (not early republican ones).

and what about german mercenaries? as long as i remember, they were not in italy in the 0.81. so whay it has been changed?


by the way, thanks for the fast and pretty exaustive answer :)

Since Polybian roman units come exclusively from Latium or from Roman or Latin colonies (of which there are none in Sicily) they can't be recruited there.

As to the mercenaries thing, I think its probably just to show the movement of mercenaries to large military centers where they were likely to find work. They're probably just placeholders to be filled by other mercs who make more sense in central Italy fulfilling that role. The descr_mercenaries file is pretty out of date in .81.

another thing:

i've finally managed to get a triumph with one of my generals. Well, i was expecting it to get a proper message - like when you conquer carthago or so - that will tell about the triumph. is just to make it more satisfactory, and to get the player something worth the efforts, other than a trait. i have no idea of how much messages has already been used, but i guess in the old senate one you could find a proper one :)

Have you returned to Roma with your general? In theory a message should be displayed then.

i've returned but no message has displayed :( when he was in rome he get the traith of celebrating triumph or somethink like, and triumphator after (or viceversa?)...

There should be a nice pop up message with a pretty picture besides the trait, but unfortunately test_message is bugged in RTW 1.5 and we still haven't found a workaround.