WASHINGTON (AP) - A bipartisan group of senators reached agreement with the White House Thursday on an immigration overhaul to grant quick legal status to millions of illegal immigrants already in the U.S. and fortify the border against new ones.
One of the key negotiators, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., said he expects President Bush to endorse it.
The deal came after weeks of painstaking closed-door negotiations that brought the most liberal Democrats and the most conservative Republicans together with Bush's Cabinet officers to produce a highly complex measure that carries heavy political consequences.
It set the stage for what promises to be a bruising battle next week in the Senate on one of Bush's top non-war priorities.
This is a breaking news update. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below
:coffeenews:
Oh. Capital. Seems basically sensible enough. Is that why you've got your undies so twisted up over it ?
05-18-2007, 01:54
Gawain of Orkeny
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Yeah lets reward people for breaking the law. And if I were a legal immigrant Id be even more pissed.
05-18-2007, 02:03
Watchman
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
So ? You haven't been able to get rid of them anyway, so might as well make a virtue out of necessity and turn them into proper citizens or something that you can tax. Probably helps finding the unscrupulous native buggers who'd rather use cheap illegal immigrant labor than pay proper taxes and wages, too - two flies with one blow, no ?
05-18-2007, 02:47
Gawain of Orkeny
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
So ? You haven't been able to get rid of them anyway, so might as well make a virtue out of necessity and turn them into proper citizens or something that you can tax
Good then you will join me in legalising all drugs including crack :laugh4: Lets do that with all crimes. Thats where the flat tax comes in :beam:
05-18-2007, 03:28
Ice
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Good then you will join me in legalising all drugs including crack :laugh4: Lets do that with all crimes. Thats where the flat tax comes in :beam:
These are people not drugs. I'm perfectly happy with the bill. If it was up to me, I'd make immigration standards even more lax then they are currently are. America is a nation of immigrants. Besides, making them legal always them to be taxed and be accounted for. We actually know who's in our country. They aren't just going to disappear.
05-18-2007, 03:45
TevashSzat
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Politicians aren't doing so because they want the US to be more open to immigrants, they are only doing so because they are too lazy or afraid to tackle a big problem. There are tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens trying to get into the US or any western country, but are continuously rejected. They are those who helped the US army but now feel threatened because they are marked by a target and could be easily targetted by terrorist groups.
05-18-2007, 04:22
Gawain of Orkeny
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
These are people not drugs.
Their criminals. They also are not necessities as you suggest. What it boils down to is that republicans let it happen because the big corporations want cheap labor and the democrats let it happen because most of these people will vote for them. The fact is if these jobs paid a decent wage americans would gladly do them. And no the price of everything wouldnt go up or at least not much as we wouldnt be supporting all these illegals and their children.
05-18-2007, 04:33
Devastatin Dave
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Reading this thread has me craving some Taco Bell. Anybody like the chilli cheese burrito? I'm gonna get me two of those and a Mexican Pizza. Well, atleast one thing has been positive about this legislation; I realised what I've been craving the past few minutes. Grassynuts all those who have contributed to this thread, grassynuts!!!:laugh4:
05-18-2007, 04:45
KafirChobee
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Their criminals. They also are not necessities as you suggest. What it boils down to is that republicans let it happen because the big corporations want cheap labor and the democrats let it happen because most of these people will vote for them. The fact is if these jobs paid a decent wage americans would gladly do them. And no the price of everything wouldnt go up or at least not much as we wouldnt be supporting all these illegals and their children.
"....the dems let it happen because most of these people will vote for them."
Er, illegals have the right to vote? Pay taxes, yes - vote, no.
As for Americans picking strawberries, asparagus, oranges, etc. for any amount of money, or Americans being willing to pay higher prices? You jest? Ask any farmer how long an average american lasts - if they hire on - a day, at best. Consider the farm subsidies paid to maintain low prices. We need these people - illegal or no.
Thing is, if our immigration laws weren't so antiquated and biased, our bureaucracy so overwhelmed by their own self importance - these illegals could have been legal. It is time for major immigration reforms, any reform that is non-persecutorial will be welcome.
Their criminals. They also are not necessities as you suggest. What it boils down to is that republicans let it happen because the big corporations want cheap labor and the democrats let it happen because most of these people will vote for them. The fact is if these jobs paid a decent wage americans would gladly do them. And no the price of everything wouldnt go up or at least not much as we wouldnt be supporting all these illegals and their children.
True dat.
All that happens under the current system is the taxpayers are subsidizing the businesses that employ illegals. They'll still get healthcare, education and other benefits- it's just that the costs are pushed onto the taxpayers instead of the employers as it should be. The only good thing in this bill is the border enforcement trigger. However, I suspect that could easily be waived off once the law is passed.
Quote:
If it was up to me, I'd make immigration standards even more lax then they are currently are. America is a nation of immigrants.
:no:
Right now we have a labor market that's very favorable to the workers. If you don't like your job or pay, chances are good that you can you can find a different better job. You're proposing that we take the lid off of the supply of the labor market. What do you think that does to your ability to find a job that you like that actually pays?
All of these bills are so completely wrong-headed to me. They have to travel back to their country of origin, but have a guaranteed right of return- what's the point of that? Then there are two year visas that are renewable, but only after the worker goes home for a year. What happens when they don't go?
Further, the whole process stinks of elitism to me. We're just letting "peasants" into our country to work for what's obviously little more than a slave wage (since no actual citizens will do the work for that money) and then we expect them to go home again once the work is done. Look, if we need more workers, let them immigrate- legally. None of this work for a pittance and go home crap either. Immigration with the intent of citizenship. Do it in a controlled, impartial and legal fashion with the intent of increasing the workforce if that's what we need. Indentured servitude is offensive to me.
05-18-2007, 06:42
Ice
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Their criminals. They also are not necessities as you suggest. What it boils down to is that republicans let it happen because the big corporations want cheap labor and the democrats let it happen because most of these people will vote for them. The fact is if these jobs paid a decent wage americans would gladly do them. And no the price of everything wouldnt go up or at least not much as we wouldnt be supporting all these illegals and their children.
They are tolerable criminals. I'd rather be a criminal in one country rather than starve to death in a another one.
Where did I say we needed them? I'm say that this country is built upon immigrants and we should continue that long held tradition. They do help us though.
Thank you also for that through analysis on the economic conditions of illegal immigrants. Very scientific. It is contrary to the mainstream claims and you give absolutely no fact to back it up. Brilliant. By the way. Prices would go up greatly if you are paying someone 12 dollars an hour to pick cherries rather than 5 bucks an hour.
I really don't understand why people are so scared of letting these people in our country. It makes sense they want to escape their crap hole of a life in Mexico and we should welcome them for moral and economic reasons.
05-18-2007, 06:45
Ice
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Right now we have a labor market that's very favorable to the workers. If you don't like your job or pay, chances are good that you can you can find a different better job. You're proposing that we take the lid off of the supply of the labor market. What do you think that does to your ability to find a job that you like that actually pays?
Absolutely Yes. First, it greatly drives down prices. I don't know about you, but I enjoy low prices.
Second, the jobs these people are taking are crap jobs. This goes back to the old "Dem der immigrants tok my j0b".
05-18-2007, 06:48
Ice
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
True dat.
Further, the whole process stinks of elitism to me. We're just letting "peasants" into our country to work for what's obviously little more than a slave wage (since no actual citizens will do the work for that money) and then we expect them to go home again once the work is done. Look, if we need more workers, let them immigrate- legally. None of this work for a pittance and go home crap either. Immigration with the intent of citizenship. Do it in a controlled, impartial and legal fashion with the intent of increasing the workforce if that's what we need. Indentured servitude is offensive to me.
No one says these immigrants have to work for slave labor. They will have the opportunity every lower class family has in this country.
Many are simply willing to work for this labor though because their standard of living will be greatly enhanced over where they came from.
05-18-2007, 08:35
Watchman
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Good then you will join me in legalising all drugs including crack :laugh4:
Sure, why not ? Pulls the rug under the drug syndicates if nothing else, when their insanely value-added main product is suddenly available legally at a fraction of the old price...
05-18-2007, 11:34
Redleg
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
The only problem with amensty is that it does not address the issue. This particlur course has been tried before.
Until immigrantion laws are reformed and more importantly enforced by all law enforcement agencies - amensty will continue to be the only way to address the citizenship of the illegal immigrants, its a very short term fix for a long term problem, so it really solves nothing.
I think that the amensty is not a big deal if the government follows through on the reform portion of the deal. The big question is how are they going to address the illegal immigrants that do not register for the amensty?
I am willing to bet its the same thing as what happened in the past.
05-18-2007, 12:33
Odin
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
I'm with Gwain on this one fella's. Criminals shouldnt be rewarded, exsisting laws should be enforced and slowly start shipping people back to thier country of origin. Let them legalize like the generations before.
I do disagree with Gwain on one point, it wasnt the Dems exclusively mate, Mr Bush has signed on as well, this is a pro business move the way it read to me, and all politicians like thier cash.
this is disgraceful.
05-18-2007, 20:15
Pindar
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
The amazing element to this is McCain. This is Presidential aspiration suicide for the fellow. His active support demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between himself and the core of the Party. It is this core that is most influential during the Party's Primary process.
05-18-2007, 20:24
Odin
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pindar
The amazing element to this is McCain. This is Presidential aspiration suicide for the fellow. His active support demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between himself and the core of the Party. It is this core that is most influential during the Party's Primary process.
Nice observation Pindar...
05-18-2007, 23:10
Gawain of Orkeny
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
I do disagree with Gwain on one point, it wasnt the Dems exclusively mate, Mr Bush has signed on as well, this is a pro business move the way it read to me, and all politicians like their cash.
I said the republicans are just as much to blame as they let them in for the corporate welfare end of it.
Quote:
They are tolerable criminals. I'd rather be a criminal in one country rather than starve to death in a another one.
Whats tolerable? Good it be subjective?
Quote:
Where did I say we needed them?
Maybe in your language nessecity has a different meaning.:inquisitive:
Quote:
I'm say that this country is built upon immigrants and we should continue that long held tradition.
I doubt you will get an argument from anyone here on that. As long as you specify its built on legal ones not illegal. Nice try at an end run though.
Quote:
Many are simply willing to work for this labor though because their standard of living will be greatly enhanced over where they came from.
You mean like many are willing to rob stores because their standard of living will be greatly enhanced over where they came from? That makes it ok. Any one whos poor can disobey the law? Heck I dont even favor that for our poor never mind illegals who sneak in here.
Quote:
Sure, why not ? Pulls the rug under the drug syndicates if nothing else, when their insanely value-added main product is suddenly available legally at a fraction of the old price...
At least we can agree on somethings :2thumbsup:
05-19-2007, 04:14
rotorgun
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
I don't think that many of the "illegals" really want to become citizens. With the low wages they make, they would be on the bottom of the economic ladder in this country. With such earnings that an 8-10 dollar-an-hour job provide, there is little chance that any with a family could really afford to live well enough in this country. These wages, husbanded and sent home by a thrifty worker to his family in Mexico, allow for a substantial quality of life there. For those who are using these jobs as a springboard to something better, it is possible that an offer of citizenship will be attractive.
As for those who are true criminals and are here, legally or not, I say process them and ship them out. These people (and any terrorists) are a danger to us, and for that reason alone I am for much increased border security. I am for the comprimise only if these issues are dealt with in the bill. Let's move on to something more productive, like ending the killing in Iraq and Afghanistan.
05-19-2007, 04:14
Don Corleone
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pindar
The amazing element to this is McCain. This is Presidential aspiration suicide for the fellow. His active support demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between himself and the core of the Party. It is this core that is most influential during the Party's Primary process.
I suspect he realizes he's not going to get the Republican nomination. He's not conservative enough on a bunch of issues, and in many ways, he's more of a tax-and-spend Big-Brother than most Democrats. I believe this is the unofficial launch of his effort to successfully mount a 3rd party campaign.
For the record, I am now convinced that at the core party level, there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats. I always suspected they were more alike than different, but this issue cuts to core values. Republicans, at the end of the day, are about 2 things: limited government (anybody check the cost of Medicaid Part D lately) and law-and-order. With this bill, they've now effectively surrendered any distinction.
We actually need a 3rd party, but that whack job dictator-wanna-be is far from the 3rd party I have in mind.
05-19-2007, 04:46
Gawain of Orkeny
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
I suspect he realizes he's not going to get the Republican nomination. He's not conservative enough on a bunch of issues, and in many ways, he's more of a tax-and-spend Big-Brother than most Democrats. I believe this is the unofficial launch of his effort to successfully mount a 3rd party campaign.
Now this is where things get scary. This is the Dems only shot at winning the presidency. Gah Hillary as president. What a horrible thought.
What? To answer your first question, escaping poverty for a better life is tolerable.
Quote:
Maybe in your language nessecity has a different meaning.:inquisitive:
My language? We are both speaking English. Now if you mean, word choice, lexicon, or dictionary, than I'll agree.
Quote:
I doubt you will get an argument from anyone here on that. As long as you specify its built on legal ones not illegal. Nice try at an end run though.
Haha.
Quote:
You mean like many are willing to rob stores because their standard of living will be greatly enhanced over where they came from? That makes it ok. Any one whos poor can disobey the law? Heck I dont even favor that for our poor never mind illegals who sneak in here.
You are equating armed robbery with trying to immigrate to a country illegally to escape poverty.
05-19-2007, 05:02
ShadeHonestus
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pindar
The amazing element to this is McCain. This is Presidential aspiration suicide for the fellow. His active support demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between himself and the core of the Party. It is this core that is most influential during the Party's Primary process.
The telling element to this is the illegal immigrants protesting. Rinse and repeat, we'll be right back where we are at now in 10 years. The question being how many will we legalize en masse then?
05-19-2007, 05:56
Xiahou
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
I suspect he realizes he's not going to get the Republican nomination. He's not conservative enough on a bunch of issues, and in many ways, he's more of a tax-and-spend Big-Brother than most Democrats. I believe this is the unofficial launch of his effort to successfully mount a 3rd party campaign.
McCain's explosive temper worries me as much as his anti-free speech track record. He definitely doesn't need to be president.
Quote:
During a meeting Thursday on immigration legislation, McCain and Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) got into a shouting match when Cornyn started voicing concerns about the number of judicial appeals that illegal immigrants could receive, according to multiple sources -- both Democrats and Republicans -- who heard firsthand accounts of the exchange from lawmakers who were in the room.
At a bipartisan gathering in an ornate meeting room just off the Senate floor, McCain complained that Cornyn was raising petty objections to a compromise plan being worked out between Senate Republicans and Democrats and the White House. He used a curse word associated with chickens and accused Cornyn of raising the issue just to torpedo a deal.
Things got really heated when Cornyn accused McCain of being too busy campaigning for president to take part in the negotiations, which have gone on for months behind closed doors. "Wait a second here," Cornyn said to McCain. "I've been sitting in here for all of these negotiations and you just parachute in here on the last day. You're out of line."
McCain, a former Navy pilot, then used language more accustomed to sailors (not to mention the current vice president, who made news a few years back after a verbal encounter with Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont).
"[Expletive] you! I know more about this than anyone else in the room," shouted McCain at Cornyn. McCain helped craft a bill in 2006 that passed the Senate but couldn't be compromised with a House bill that was much tougher on illegal immigrants.
What? To answer your first question, escaping poverty for a better life is tolerable.
Entering my country to do it is not. Should we take in all the poor of the world?
Quote:
ou are equating armed robbery with trying to immigrate to a country illegally to escape poverty.
Armed robbery? How about just going into a store and taking stuff on the sly? The point is their trying to accomplish the samething. Feed themselves and their families and make a better life for themselves. I find these people more tolerable than your illegal immigrants. At least their americans. So yes tolerable is subjective.
05-19-2007, 20:13
ShadeHonestus
Re: Deal Struck on Immigration Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Entering my country to do it is not. Should we take in all the poor of the world?
Word on the street is that Ireland is the place to be, lets give them free boat passage there and see how the Irish deal with it. Isn't any place in Europe suppose to be a Utopia compared to the U.S.? I've actually heard innuendo on this very board that pre-war Iraq wasn't so bad, lets get a time machine and ship them all there, I'm sure they'd accept those theories and go willingly.
