Why won't rome agree to a ceasefire?

Playing as Carthage and I have have been fighting rome for some years now, I have taken tarentum, arpi, capau, roma and arretium from them. Before I take a city I give them an offer for a ceasefire even saying I will attack if they don't. They still don't take the offer, even though they barely have any forces in italy. I want peace with them so I can deal with lustonna who proving do be quiet a threat. When they ask for a ceasefire they always demand that I give them back all their cities and 60,000 mnai which seems rather foolish and I would annialate them before I agree to those terms.

It could be that, because they've been constantly declining your offers from the beginning, your diplomat is just of such poor quality that it's nearly impossible to obtain a decent settlement.

Another thing to keep in mind is they might not like you threatening them. I'd recommend, instead, defeating them in the field, or taking one more city, then sending a fresh or highly skilled diplomat to talk to Rome. Ask for a ceasefire, and offer 4,000 mnai or something. They should accept it, and try to talk to just a captain, don't try to negotiate with a family member that has 10 influence.

This is a known flaw of the RTW AI. I suggest the Forced Diplomacy Mod for occasions such as this. When you know any real, sane person would accept, Forced Diplomacy will make it so.

how do u get forced diplomacy

You'll find it in the unofficial mods section.

Peace is rather overated here.

You've defeated and humiliated them. Either they settle for peace or not, their civilization is crushed beyond repair. They hate you and everything you stand for.
Why would they accept to stop killing your men at every ocasion?

I find it realistic that a faction in such situation will not accept a ceasefire. Specialy if they have a spy or something in Iberia telling them you have problems elsewhere.

If you relly need peace, either give them their old cities back (some of them...) or, even better, abandon said cities. The Romans will be busy taking their former bastions from rebel hands, and won't bother you a bit.

For Romans it is realistic not to surrender. In general the AI is simply retarded and has no idea of its current status at any given time, nor does it have any idea what you are proposing. You can beat a faction to pulp, leave them with a small town in the desert with only an undermanned slinger unit as an army and offer them all their 30 cities back and 100000000000000000000000 denarii and they still don't accept peace. Don't be surprised then by your current game, there is much worse

Does anyone even have the faintest idea of what the formula for surrender odds might look like? Because once I was attacked by the seleucid juggernaut... endless, endless elite stacks coming at me. Yet, every turn I was able to get a ceasefire from them, plus 10,000 mnai. Of course, they'd immediately attack again, and I'd just get my ceasefire bonus. So, sometimes the AI will NOT surrender even when sensible to do so, and other times, even when it's winning, it can't seem to stop paying you in order to let it surrender. Honestly, it sometimes looks like a bug has made the formula/odds work in reverse.

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Honestly, it sometimes looks like a bug has made the formula/odds work in reverse.

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Nah, it's a feature.

Its just annoying because I kill their troops faster than they can produce them so they end up buying giant mercenary armies which forces me to recruit my own mercs. I have now advanced as far as arminuim and sending garrison forces to my newly conqured cities from lilibeo and messana. whats weird is that me and lustanna got in a war and I was creaming them until my army was decimated but their army too was decimated so they actually offered a ceasefire. Now I noticed they rebuilt a lot of their army they made 1 stack and I'm thinking about attacking them. Lustanna's ai actually seems smarter than the romans. Thinking about building another army and sending it to italy since the orginal 2 stacks of pure african troops is down to like 4 units, I think i'll wait till I get elephants.

There are, I believe, different AI types for different factions. So, perhaps, some factions really are smarter than others. Or maybe some factions have a military which is more complex, one the AI knows less about using or purchasing sensibly.

Do not try to find reason behind the AI, or a soul if you know what I mean, because there is none. The AI in RTW is the same gang-up-on-you "intelligence" that has been since the game come out.

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Originally Posted by nanoman88

Playing as Carthage and I have have been fighting rome for some years now, I have taken tarentum, arpi, capau, roma and arretium from them. Before I take a city I give them an offer for a ceasefire even saying I will attack if they don't. They still don't take the offer, even though they barely have any forces in italy. I want peace with them so I can deal with lustonna who proving do be quiet a threat. When they ask for a ceasefire they always demand that I give them back all their cities and 60,000 mnai which seems rather foolish and I would annialate them before I agree to those terms.

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Forget about it. Ive played many a Carthaginian campagin and the Romans have never once agreed to a ceasefire. My solution was to force them to become a protectorate. Softened their cough, so it did.

kill them

see, the Punic/Greek mode of war was to force a submission, not a massacre
but the Roman way was fight to the death, to reduce enemies to a pitiful state that they cannot climb out of

just kill them all, extermination


in my experience, as Safot Softim biQarthadast, Lusotana, and Saka Rauka I have found extermination is the best way to deal with the supers... Roma, Arche Seleukeia and guys like that

I agree that the obstinate diplomatic AI can be really annoying, but remember that, at least in the case of the Romani, after losing their first two battles in the Pyrrhic wars, demanded that Pyrrhos leave Italy before they'd be willing to listen to him about a cease fire.

That said, when Rome is refusing a ceasefire from their tiny settlement up in north italy while you sit in Roma, it gets a little annoying. Offer them back a couple of cities, and demand tribute...that might work. I doubt they'll accept a ceasefire while you're sitting in their former capital.

I

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have taken tarentum, arpi, capau, roma and arretium from them. Before I take a city I give them an offer for a ceasefire even saying I will attack if they don't. They still don't take the offer, even though they barely have any forces in italy.

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Dont worry, Hannibal and Phyrrus were equally puzzled and frustrated so youre in good company.

Basically the diplomatic/strategic AI in RTW is nonsense. Just take all their cities. Problem solved. Theyll never surrender so dont waste much time with diplomats - practically useless agent. If you dont want their cities for some reason, then just gift them to a local minor power to boost them and keep the local AIs grinding each other down.

As Roma you can do great things with gifted cash and cities in the threeway scrap between Epiros, KH and the Macs. Dont expect gratitude - theyll still betray you and attack you at some point, but while theyre busy burning each other down you can head south and west with confidence.

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Does anyone even have the faintest idea of what the formula for surrender odds might look like?

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I assume its purely random tbh. Sometimes AI will offer peace on their turn. Reload and they dont. If it was condition based, it should offer peace every single time you reload - or at least practically every single time to allow for the other AIs doing something lucky, smart or silly.

IIRC, having rebel/neutral territory as a buffer between your borders and theirs might force the AI to go for a ceasefire. I think as soon as they dont have a border with you they go for ceasefires automatically. Not sure where that leaves coastal/island provinces though.

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Originally Posted by nanoman88

Playing as Carthage and I have have been fighting rome for some years now, I have taken tarentum, arpi, capau, roma and arretium from them. Before I take a city I give them an offer for a ceasefire even saying I will attack if they don't. They still don't take the offer, even though they barely have any forces in italy. I want peace with them so I can deal with lustonna who proving do be quiet a threat. When they ask for a ceasefire they always demand that I give them back all their cities and 60,000 mnai which seems rather foolish and I would annialate them before I agree to those terms.

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Because they're Hardcore Italians!! ~:pimp:

I had a big diplomatic success yesterday.

I (Mak) had conquered the three upper egyptian provinces from the Seleukids, who conquered them from the Ptolemies. South of Diospolis was Pselkis, Erythraia and Kush still in the hands of the Ptollies, together with Cyprus and Augila. To the west were four other Seleukid holdings.

I marched an army west to Hibis, and they died of hunger and I got the town. Meanwhile in Diospolis, spies had caused unbelievable unrest and the city eventually rioted and became Ptolemaic, causing the state of war with me and them.

But I made them the following proposal: I offered a ceasefire, trade rights and Hibis, demanding Diospolis from them. And I couldn't believe it but they accepted! The Ptollie diplomat said something like "we must regretfully accept your offer, but we surely won't thank any gods for this treaty." :laugh4: :laugh4:

Now that was great. It's not so often that the AI is aware of its own possibilities and mine.:laugh4: :laugh4:

I've never had a diplomatic coup anywhere near this level. At best, at best, I'm able to acquire trade rights. I don't know if I've ever initiated an alliance. Seriously, my diplomats are always terrible. I know that successful assassination and spying missions work for the other agents respectively, but what about for diplomats? Successful diplomacy? How does one even do that?

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Originally Posted by Rundownloser

I've never had a diplomatic coup anywhere near this level. At best, at best, I'm able to acquire trade rights. I don't know if I've ever initiated an alliance. Seriously, my diplomats are always terrible. I know that successful assassination and spying missions work for the other agents respectively, but what about for diplomats? Successful diplomacy? How does one even do that?

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When I first get a diplomat I have him stay in a city with a bazaar or faction equivalent building for a few turns so he gets trained. When he gets trained he'll lose the negative agent points of being 'untrained' or 'freshly recruited' and get +1 agent point and a bonus to movement. When it comes to training him up to get more agent points I usually just send him to the other factions to either:

1. Get trade rights.
2. Map information either by exchanging my own for theirs, or doing some negotiating to buy theirs.
3. Make an alliance with trade rights, mutual military access, and a mutual exchange of map info (this usually gets my diplomat an agent point and a retinue character)

It can take time and getting used to, but it isn't impossible to get a 6 or 9 point diplomat without the 'ambassador' trait. As Makedon with a diplomat who had 8 agent points I managed to get a ceasefire with Arche Seleukeia, and in addition to this I exchanged Pergamon and Mytilene (which I held) for Byzantion and the city nearby it in Thrace (Tylis?), and then on top of that I got them to pay me and "indemnity" of 5,000 mnai! :2thumbsup:

I had peace with Seleukeia for nearly 20 years after that. Turns out they just wanted me to stay the hell out of the East, and they figured out i wanted them to get the hell out of Europe :laugh4:

Whenever I want peace terms with an enemy, I send two full armies in their territory. First I take an important city, one that generate a huge income, exterminate its people, than fight battles to destroy their field armies. When satisfied, send your best diplomat, offer them a ceasefire and a small tribute of about 5000 mnai. A maximum payment of 10000 mnai and the return of their city generally makes the AI accept the offer.

In my Romani campain I have been at war with the Aidui for almost 10 long years, from 238 to 226, they always crossed into my territory and attacked Masillia. In the end I send three full legions to gaul, captured Gergovia:whip: from them, destroyed 2 large stalks and a small one near Tolosa and marched north to their capital, Bibracte. I offered Gergovia to the Arverni together with 500 mnai, and the Aidui accepted peace terms and a tribute of 10000 mnai. But the Poeni never accepted any form of peace. :wall:

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Rundownloser

I've never had a diplomatic coup anywhere near this level. At best, at best, I'm able to acquire trade rights. I don't know if I've ever initiated an alliance. Seriously, my diplomats are always terrible. I know that successful assassination and spying missions work for the other agents respectively, but what about for diplomats? Successful diplomacy? How does one even do that?

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Alliances are very easy at the beginning of the game, say 10 first years, especially with nations you are unlikely ever to have meaningful interaction with. As the Romans I get alliances with the Saka and Sarmatians for example early on to train my diplomats. Not that it accomplishes anything, it is common knowledge that diplomacy is completely worthless in this game.

I've had plenty of experience that actually seems to suggest that the ceasefire formula is written _backwards_. I too have gotten the indestructible seleukid juggernaut to surrender to me (and give me money) each and every turn, even though they are mashing me to a pulp. And of course, losers never surrender.

From what I remember, the Diplomat rating has no effect on how likely it is the AI will accept a deal, it simply relates to the bribery mechanic - to bribe someone you need a higher diplomacy rating than the target.

Diplomats with good training can protect cities/captains from AI bribery by having a high rating, and will be able to bribe enemy diplomats and targets that lesser diplomats wouldnt [which would be useful, but 1.2 made bribery far far too expensive to bother with] but apart from that it has zero effect.