Who's taking my money?!

I've never paid much attention to the financial overview figures before, but now that I did, I've noticed some strange thing...

At the end of the turn 258 I had 11775 florins, with predicted profit of 13990. Good.

https://img103.imageshack.us/img103/...8479mm4.th.jpg

At the begining of turn 259 I looked at the End turn report, it says my profit is 14245. Very good. So, 11775 FL from last turn + 14245 FL profit should make 26020 FL, right? Wrong! My treasury is only 16528 FL! I didn't build or recruit anything on any of those turns.

https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/...1072ie6.th.jpg

So what happend to my almost 10000 FL? Is this some bug, a feature that I am not aware of, or was the medieval mathematics somehow different from the modern one?

:help:

It’s worse than you think!

If you add up the figures in the expenditure column (first screen shot) the total should come to 123229 and not 125629.

This would give you a profit of 16390 (not 13990).

As to why, I can only suggest that you check the faction leaders traits. If he has the horribly scarred trait it might be because he has lost a finger or two in battle making it difficult for him to count up to 10.
~:joker:

You should be asking yourself two questions:

1) Why did my treasurer abscond to Tahiti?
2) Where the devil is Tahiti?

Actually, are you a vassal to someone or have any diplomatic agreements still running?

Whoa, thats a lot of corruption!

FactionHeir, I'm not a vassal, in fact I have a Moors as my vassals. Until recently the Danes were also my vassals, but they backstabed me!

I do have a high corruption, as Joshwa noticed, I guess this is because my kingdom is a bit spread out. I'll think I'll have to move my capital to a more central position.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel

It’s worse than you think!

If you add up the figures in the expenditure column (first screen shot) the total should come to 123229 and not 125629.

This would give you a profit of 16390 (not 13990).

As to why, I can only suggest that you check the faction leaders traits. If he has the horribly scarred trait it might be because he has lost a finger or two in battle making it difficult for him to count up to 10.
~:joker:

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Well, I had a feeling that all this numbers don't mean much, especially when you have a king who cannot count and a treasurer on his way to Tahiti :laugh4:

For almost all the game calculations whether it is auto-sieging, determining assassination success, naval battles, traits etc. the computer always uses a random number to fuzzy the results. So we shouldn’t be surprised when it uses the same technique for its accounting.
I can think of a few modern companies / government that have learnt this lesson from history.

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Originally Posted by DVX BELLORVM

So what happend to my almost 10000 FL? Is this some bug, a feature that I am not aware of, or was the medieval mathematics somehow different from the modern one?

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I was also confused by these reports and there is thread somewhere where I was trying to get my head around things.

First off I would suggest that you forget the start of turn financial summary as a source of information. I am beginning to realise that all of these start of turn reports are bug ridden and frequently misleading, but more importantly the financial summary doesn't really tell you what you need to know anyway.

Instead I would click on the pot of gold in the bottom right of the screen and call up the Financial Detail Screen. This will at least give you a breakdown of income and expenditure which can be directly compared to last turn predictions, and then you can hopefully identify where the missing 10,000 florins have been lost.

There are a number of possibilities here, but without the comparison its difficult to determine which are relevant in your case.


*When I say ‘Should be predictable’, the one thing I discovered through my own thread on this subject is that there is a ‘black hole’ in the financial reporting when it comes to buildings and recruitment. This seems to be linked to situations where the player has scheduled building and recruitment in advance of schedule or financial resource being available. Basically, any time you are likely to get the ‘Queue Stalled’ message.

What seems to happen is that the Financial Prediction Report ignores these expenses because basically they aren’t scheduled for construction. The Financial Summary also ignores them for the same reason, but the Financial Detail Report also ignores them because the program deducts the money to place them in your build schedule before the nominal start of the turn.

So, you get a Financial Prediction and Financial Summary showing that your treasury should and does contain X florins, but when you look it only contains X-(the cost of scheduling queued units and buildings) and there is no explanation of where this money went in the Financial Detail Report.

Thanx, Didz!

The only suspicious item in the financial overview I can find is diplomacy/tributes. It reports income of about 11000 each turn, but I can't find the source of it. I do have the Moors as my vassals, but I don't think they can produce all that money, since they got only one province left.

What crosses my mind is the fact that the Denmark was my vassal until recently, and maybe somehow the game doesn't realize they are not anymore, and still reports unexisting income coming from them...

If this is the case, then we have a bug.

Your tax collectors are clearly not acting in your best interests.
I suggest impaling all of them outside whatever passes for a Tax Collectors College in your empire. This and a combination of hostage taking amoung the families of the young tax-collecting progidies should ensure a steady flow of income minus the typical loss.
Any of your govonors tell you otherwise, flay them alive and polish their bones into a nice chess set. Human skin makes a fine lampshade as well, provided you keep it oiled. You'll have to invent the lamp as well, of course.

I'm sure some of your governors work into their own pockets because you don't pay them well enough.

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Originally Posted by alpaca

I'm sure some of your governors work into their own pockets because you don't pay them well enough.

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Well, they can be flayed alive to. That or sent to fight on the Eastern Front against the Red Ar-...Mongol Hordes.

I'm not going anywhere near a topic with a guy named Sheogorath.

I value my sanity. ^_^

The irony is that I posted here...

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Originally Posted by Rhedd

I'm not going anywhere near a topic with a guy named Sheogorath.

I value my sanity. ^_^

The irony is that I posted here...

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Sanity is for the weak! Just remember its the Mad God, not the Dam Dog.

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Originally Posted by DVX BELLORVM

The only suspicious item in the financial overview I can find is diplomacy/tributes. It reports income of about 11000 each turn, but I can't find the source of it. I do have the Moors as my vassals, but I don't think they can produce all that money, since they got only one province left.

What crosses my mind is the fact that the Denmark was my vassal until recently, and maybe somehow the game doesn't realize they are not anymore, and still reports unexisting income coming from them...

If this is the case, then we have a bug.

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That sounds like the most likely source of the discrepancy.

I can see on the Financial Overview that it is expected an income of 11,000 florins from tribute/diplomacy, but does this figure actually appear on the financial detail report for the following turn?

If not then thats the looks like the cause of the missing money.

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Originally Posted by Didz

That sound like the most likely source of the discrepancy.

I can see on the Financial Overview that it is expected an income of 11,000 florins from tribute/diplomacy, but does this figure actually appear on the financial detail report for the following turn?

If not then thats the looks like the cause of the missing money.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "financial detail report for the following turn". The end turn report doesn't show income by items, but the reported income is always higher than I actually get. The difference varies from about 9000-12000.

The Financial Overview always shows those 11000 diplomacy/tribute income, and I'm still not able to find the source of it.

I've always assumed that the Financial Detail shown on the Financial Overview was based upon the actual figures carried forward from the previous turn.

This seemed to make sense to me as the program cannot truly predict what is going to happen in the current turn until you press the End of Turn button. So, in theory comparing the Financial Detail Report in the previous turn Financial Overview with that in the current turn you ought to be able to spot what has changed during the End turn process.

However, having just tried to validate the finances in my own game from Turn 121 to Turn 122 I've found some glaring mathematical issues that can't be explained by comparing financial detail reports. So, it seems to me that the whole routine is just a mess and makes no real sense.
https://img525.imageshack.us/img525/...summaryko8.jpg
In my game I end Turn 121 with 1,452 florins in my treasury and a predicted loss of -3,392 for the forthcoming turn. That should have produced a treasury deficit of -1,940 for Turn 122.

The End of Turn report for Turn 121 reports an actual loss of -4,033 which means that my treasury balance ought to be even more in deficit to the tune of -2,581. But it isn’t, in fact I begin Turn 122 with 7,403 florins in the bank which is 9,984 florins more than any of the financial reports can justify.

I can only conclude that whoever programmed this routine never took a book-keeping course and that whoever tested it couldn’t do simple math, as quite literally it doesn’t add up.

Given the importance placed upon money in the game I would have thought that the accuracy of these financial reports would be a high priority. I certainly think the End of Turn Financial Report needs to be as detailed as the Financial Overview so that it can justify the figures it is quoting, and most important of all the Treasury balance needs to be a product of the income and expenditure rather than an arbitrary figure apparently plucked out of thin air.

As far as your 11,000 florins of recurring tribute is concerned, this seems to be a bug, as from what you've said you are not entitled to receive any tribute and probably aren't.

Clearly and quite obviously, you have accuired mexican jumping money

Oh.

Isnt there a winter/summer season (even tho turns are 2 years etc)...doesn't snow effect your grain harvest (mayby not)?
During the AI turn, rebels appear, ports are blockaded, buildings 2nd in your que's become 1st (and thus become expenses), ports are built so new trade is opened so new routes are added or lost which may lower your income in the short term but raise it in the long term (ie: importing higher value goods from a smaller city that has a higher growth rate), the same thing happening because the AI decides trading with a Polish town is better than trading with Huge City Arhus as you became allied to the poles last turn...

In about ~19/20 cases, if the bottom line on the forcast is above what is in your treasury at the end of the turn, your probably not poor.

If the forcast is above what you had in your treasury at the start of the turn (if you can remember), your probably rich.

Corruption includes Admin and Blockade income, yes?

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Originally Posted by Didz

I can only conclude that whoever programmed this routine never took a book-keeping course and that whoever tested it couldn’t do simple math, as quite literally it doesn’t add up.

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Since I didn't find any sense in all those figures, I tend to agree with your conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Didz

Given the importance placed upon money in the game I would have thought that the accuracy of these financial reports would be a high priority. I certainly think the End of Turn Financial Report needs to be as detailed as the Financial Overview so that it can justify the figures it is quoting, and most important of all the Treasury balance needs to be a product of the income and expenditure rather than an arbitrary figure apparently plucked out of thin air.

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IIRC, the Financial Report at the End of a turn in RTW was more detailed, and the Financial overview pretty accurately predicted your future treasury (if something unexpected didn't happened, of course).

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Originally Posted by Didz

As far as your 11,000 florins of recurring tribute is concerned, this seems to be a bug, as from what you've said you are not entitled to receive any tribute and probably aren't.

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That is correct.

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Isn't there a winter/summer season (even tho turns are 2 years etc)...doesn't snow effect your grain harvest (mayby not)?

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If there is a winter/summer effect then the computer should know about it and adjust the report accordingly. Just as it does when you open a new trade route etc.
Bad harvest produced by some random element should not be predicted in the accounts but should be reported in the same way as flood/storms etc.

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During the AI turn, rebels appear, ports are blockaded

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These events occur after your turn has finished, after your income has been calculated / paid. The rebel that suddenly appears on your trade route will affect the next turns financial report, not this one (if you don't kill them all)

Cmon, have you not noticed your florins are not updated unitll the beginning of your turn?

Its a forecast, its generated at the beginning of your turn, some events will occurr between then and the next iteration, oh, in fact, ALL but ~1/20th of the events will occur OUTSIDE your turn.

Buildings are finished at the end of your turn, if theres a building que'd then the cost will be deducted from your stash BETWEEN then end of your turn and the beginning of the next, oops, now why am I missing 9600? ahh, Antioch has a Huge Stone Wall that needs paying for, guess what? the expense for that is shown up on the chart for next turns forcast.

Maybe RTW and MTW were more 'reliable' coz you paid for the que's on the turn you requested them? And RTW's city's showing 'average profit' or whatever rather than 'total revenue' was a bit of an eye sore.

No, I doubt the dev's would have done accounting, they would have studied computer science or whatever you call it in your country.

@PutCashIn
A spirited defence my friend by it doesn't actually hold.

The AI either knows exactly where all the money has come from and where it has gone, in which case it ought to tells us. We are after all the players.

Or it doesn't know in which case there are serious shortcomings in the game design. If you have read the preceding posts you will have noted that your point about the variations between forecast and actual have already been made in detail and we understand them.

However, the fact remains that the financial information provide to the player is not mathematically correct. Specifically, the End Of Turn report needs to be expanded to provide a full and accurate breakdown of income and expenditure, which is mathematically sound in relation to the variation in the players treasury.

In my opinion that information should also be held over for reference purposes either as a one off report, or better still as a cumulative report showing the financial performance of the faction over time.

What is provided at the moment is worse than useless, in that its actually misleading.

[Of course I am willing to be proved wrong...all you have to do is look at the three financial reports I have posted above and identify exactly why my treasury balance was 1,452 florins at the end of turn 121 and 7,403 florins at the start of turn 122.]

The big difference i notice between the 2 reports is construction. Did you get any queue stalled messages at the beginning of turn 122?

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Originally Posted by Lusted

The big difference i notice between the 2 reports is construction. Did you get any queue stalled messages at the beginning of turn 122?

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Nope! not in this instance. The actual reports I received were:


About the only thing that might account for a sudden windfall of 9,984 florins is the repair of the buildings in Arguin, coupled with the death of Makmartane who was inciting religious unrest just through being alive. However, it could not have made that much difference as the net income from Arguin is only 230 florin’s for turn 122 and I would have assumed that these effects would not kick in until after the events were reported, like the Theologians Guild which deducts its cost from the current treasury balance.

Anyway the key point which DVX and I are raising is the fact that whatever the true explanation for the variations we have identified the financial reports don't justify the figures we are getting. One would hope that the actual income and expenditure generated each turn is accurate and justifiable, together with the new treasury balance.

Unfortunately, as players we can't confirm this because we are not shown the figures which confirm how they were calculated and that is a serious shortcoming in my opinion.

Didz: The financial report shows the profit compared to the amount of money you had at the start of the turn. If you build stuff, your profit will go down. So you shouldn't add the -4000 to the 1500 but to whatever it was that you had in your coffers at the start of turn 121
I second that lost money for sieges is probably only deducted at the end of turn 122.
There's also usually a slight discrepancy between what the game shows should happen and what actually happens I don't have a theory for yet (these are the 600 florins or so between the projection and the actual loss). It could be due to trade fluctuations that are checked on end turn (I believe the game re-routes the trade routes at the end of your turn but before actually calculating income - I might be wrong there, the reason I assume it is that the SettlementTurnEnd stuff is checked before FactionTurnEnd when modding)
One thing I noticed is that merchant take-overs don't appear anywhere in your financial scroll, this can have a significant effect on the accuracy of the scroll especially in the early game.

@Didz : priest and family member deaths do affect your income since you don't have to pay their upkeep anymore. OK, so you won't gain 6000 out of that, but still :smash:

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Originally Posted by alpaca

Didz: The financial report shows the profit compared to the amount of money you had at the start of the turn. If you build stuff, your profit will go down. So you shouldn't add the -4000 to the 1500 but to whatever it was that you had in your coffers at the start of turn 121
I second that lost money for sieges is probably only deducted at the end of turn 122.

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Hmm! good point. So in that respect the End of Turn report is even more misleading as it repeats the deduction of money which has already been deducted dynamically during the course of the previous turn without repeating the starting balance upon which it is basing those figures.

Curiously, it also must mean that somewhere in the hidden and secret recessess of the program it must have stored those figures otherwise it would not be able to use them at the end of the turn. Soooo! if it knows what the figures were why doesn't it tell the player so that the player can confirm that its calculations are accurate?

Instead, what it basically means is that unless a player keeps a seperate record of the start of turn balance and carefully accounts for every expenditure incurred during the turn there isn't a hope in hell of tracking your finances.

This is compounded by the 'Queue Stalled' gliche and all the other issues like the merchant takeovers you mention.

Given that the trade recalculation bug plagued 1.0 and crippled gameplay and in light of situations such as the mysterious 10,000 florin phantom income described by DVX it seems to me that something serious needs to be done to provide the player with some accurate feedback on whats happening. If only so we can spot when things are going wrong.

Ok I did a few more observations, and scrap that about sieges and port blockades only becoming active after one turn. They immediately cost you money.
Furthermore, upkeep for new units and agents, or units/agents that died in battle after the end of your turn are also taken into account which means that it's very unlikely you can accurately predict what you're going to have in the next turn.
If you're at peace, you can make a rough estimate of it by summing up the upkeep of new units and agents you create, but if you're at war port blockades, sieges and defensive battles will really play mischief with your projection.
Add to that that you have to track every merchant take-over you do and you end up, as Didz says, in chaos :laugh4:

By the way: If I recall correctly, there was a starting treasury in RTW.

To be honest I'm not that interested in how much money I will have next turn. However, I would like to know that the amount of money I have this turn has been accurately calculated and where it came from and went. At the minute there are all sorts of unexplainable anomalies and there has been at least one serious bug.