How useful do you find spears after 1.02?

Since installing the new patch, I've only played HA-strong nations (Turks and Russians) and didn't bother with getting spears, instead going straight for Jannissaries and using the Russian Dismounted Dvor/axe line later in the game. Now I'm starting a Venetian campaign.

Earlier it seemed that buying DFKs was the thing to do, as any spears (I mean those without the spearwall) were crushed by cavalry charges anyway, and you'd often encounter dismounted knight armies from castle factions anyway, and those would eat through the shield-bugged spearwall like no tomorrow.

What do you think, are non-spearwall spears rubbish or useful these days?

They are very usefull to counter cavalry charges. Even English levy spears can hold a cavalry charge when they have some armor upgrades. Once the English can get longbows two units of spears are good for defending the flanks. I am now playing as Venice which has Italian spear militia. ISM can hold their line even against generals.

Yeah, M2 has taught me a very aggressive game á la Horse Archer armies, need to cool it down a bit and let infantry do what they can and keep cavalry as reserves and flankers. After all, a spear line has staying power against swords these days as well, and coupled with good missile troops can take care of most forces. The Italian crossbow militia units are great, they can even flank effectively if need be.

just make sure they are immobile so they can brace with guard mode on. they will stop a cav charge enough to make it a waste of time for any sensible opponent.

I find spearmen useful as blockers for most melee units in seiges, as long as you can keep their flanks secure. They also form the mainstay of my battle-line in open battlefields, but again need cavalry support to cover their flanks.

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Originally Posted by Caliburn

Since installing the new patch, I've only played HA-strong nations (Turks and Russians) and didn't bother with getting spears, instead going straight for Jannissaries and using the Russian Dismounted Dvor/axe line later in the game. Now I'm starting a Venetian campaign.

Earlier it seemed that buying DFKs was the thing to do, as any spears (I mean those without the spearwall) were crushed by cavalry charges anyway, and you'd often encounter dismounted knight armies from castle factions anyway, and those would eat through the shield-bugged spearwall like no tomorrow.

What do you think, are non-spearwall spears rubbish or useful these days?

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As of 1.2 spears are awesome. They eat cavalry for lunch and they are tough enough to stall DFKs or other swordsmen while your cavalry performs a flanking maneuver. Spears also do an excellent job as gate defenders in sieges.

As others have said, Spears in 1.2 are great. Excellent for holding my line while I use other faster troops (sword/axe/cav) to flank, they are also great at gate defense for city or castle. Excellent defensive units in my opinion. Of course there is a wide range of quality among spear units, but most factions have a at least 1 excellent one.

Very useful the problem is the lack of morale....

Spears always have a place in my line. They hold well at the MLR (Main Line of Resistance). I have gone back to the English for my currant game. I always put them at the end of the MLR for flanking defense for cavalry.

I'm too aggressive as well and rarely use spears. I used them when I played Venice first because their militia spears are awesome but stopped in the late game. My last 3 campaigns (Rus, Turks and Moors), I've barely used any spears. The Turks and Moors I played after 1.2. My late game Moor army in my current campaign is a mixture of Christian Guard, dismounted Christian Guard and Camel Gunners.

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Originally Posted by mad cat mech

they will stop a cav charge enough to make it a waste of time for any sensible opponent.

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rules out the ai then:laugh4:

The Italians with their Carroccio Standards have fewer problems with morale anyway, as long as you feel like lugging them along for a battle.

Putting the standards to the flanks of your formation seems like an interesting idea, as they'll boost the nearby units' morale and are pretty tough, so they can keep enemy flankers at bay and flank themselves if need be. Also, charges won't work well against them as the standard is in front of their formation, and they are spearmen.

Might try that as very early on Venice has very limited cavalry and only a few crossbows (before buiding enough barracks), so stacks tend to have more than enough spears anyway.

I find spear units very useful still. :yes:

With the turks, i have used fair amounts of spear militia, dismounted sipahis and saracens with reasonable success. I was able to use spearmen the same way i used them in MTW1: stand still, recieve charge, hold their ground till some sort of assistance comes. Worked very nicely with missile support, naffatun preferred.

Always with guard mode on. They did hold their ground long enough

The morale of the spear militia was a bothersome issue, the did rout significantly faster than the others

My favorite infantry units are spears, the five units that share the same traits:

• Good resistance to missiles, which helps most in siege battles.

• good attack/defense against knights.

• Can survive attacks by good infantry long enough for my missiles to do the killing, and,

• low cost and building requirements.

These are:

Saracen Militia
Pavise Spearmen
Mercenary Spearmen
Crusader Sergeants
Armored Sergeants

Of those, my favorite are Saracen Infantry because they are a free-upkeep unit in cities.

Doug : you forget Italian Infantry in that list. Not only do they have the same stats as Armored Sarges except for the -1 in armor, they can also get 2 armor upgrades compared to the sarges' 1. Meaning that if Lusted is right in thinking that armor upgrades really add 2-and-something to a unit's actual armor instead of the displayed 1, then they're actually better than them.

Lusted being Lusted, I trust what he says to be right :laugh4:

Well from my testing it definitely looks like armour upgrades give a +2/2.5 bonus to armour.

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

Doug : you forget Italian Infantry in that list. Not only do they have the same stats as Armored Sarges except for the -1 in armor, they can also get 2 armor upgrades compared to the sarges' 1. Meaning that if Lusted is right in thinking that armor upgrades really add 2-and-something to a unit's actual armor instead of the displayed 1, then they're actually better than them.

Lusted being Lusted, I trust what he says to be right :laugh4:

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Point taken. Italian Spear militia too.

Actually unless I have some of the bad-ass spears (like Saracen Militia or Italian City), I'll just use them as sacrifices to stop charges until my good units move in (foot knights or two-handed units).
An exception to this rule is schiltrom, I lately adopted a tactic with the English where my Longbowmen would pin down their stakes and I put spear militia on schiltrom in the free spaces between the stakes - the enemy will still attack the spears while my longbowmen shoot them from a safe distance through the stake-induced gaps. Then I'll bring my cav or heavy inf around the flanks and then the enemy will run. Worked every time so far. However in that case even the spear units will usually do quite some damage because schiltrom is quite good if the enemy can't wrap themselves around your unit because of the stakes.

Well, the good spearmen(the ones with attack 7 and defense 14) can easily kill an enemy bodyguard unit charging them. So I say they're good.

Spear and peasant units are useless at charging. Not in terms of damage but in terms of target seeking. Each individual targets a specific enemy cav individual, even those at the very backrow. So instead of ever hitting them, they just run through the cav without attacking, letting the cav slaughter them, while their mates are blocked from attacking due to their running on the spot mates.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Well, the good spearmen(the ones with attack 7 and defense 14) can easily kill an enemy bodyguard unit charging them. So I say they're good.

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Yep, Armored Sarges mess up cavalry pretty badly. Heck, now that 1.2 is out even the previously good-for-nothing Byzantine SPearmen are good for something -- defending city/castle gates during siege battles.

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Originally Posted by alpaca

Actually unless I have some of the bad-ass spears (like Saracen Militia or Italian City), I'll just use them as sacrifices to stop charges until my good units move in (foot knights or two-handed units).
An exception to this rule is schiltrom, I lately adopted a tactic with the English where my Longbowmen would pin down their stakes and I put spear militia on schiltrom in the free spaces between the stakes - the enemy will still attack the spears while my longbowmen shoot them from a safe distance through the stake-induced gaps. Then I'll bring my cav or heavy inf around the flanks and then the enemy will run. Worked every time so far. However in that case even the spear units will usually do quite some damage because schiltrom is quite good if the enemy can't wrap themselves around your unit because of the stakes.

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This is extremely effective even when the enemy wraps around, because then the cavalry turn their backs to your missile units and the rest of the world. Their front faces the spears. They also turn their vulnerable sides to the open while marching around, looking for a place to squeeze in.

Schiltrom generally still seems rather useless to me.
Units in schiltrom die much faster and kill considerably less units of the same type even if the schiltrom unit is upgraded and has more experience.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Schiltrom generally still seems rather useless to me.
Units in schiltrom die much faster and kill considerably less units of the same type even if the schiltrom unit is upgraded and has more experience.

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Ah, but it's not the schiltron that does the killing. Its the javelins and arrow and crossbow bolts do. You don't even suffer from friendly fire. All your shields are turned outwards and some enemy gets hit and stops the missiles.

Still, while the unit is not engaged, it suffers more from hostile/friendly fire than if it were not in schiltrom. Reason being clustered so tightly together that something will hit.
Field day for artillery the AI likes to field.

i havent run test but it seems from what ive seen so far that when in schiltrom they actually resist missiles better. especially versus flatter shooting missiles.

They're now pretty close to how they were in MTW, I think, which is good. Get some good and heavy (armored sergeants) spearmen and make a line. Put missiles behind and swords and cav at the flanks. Just like the good old days.