English Longbows in 1/2 the time !!!

Hi everyone ~:wave:

After reading the strategies on here and playing the English in M2TW I would like to share some thoughts with you all.

From my earlier experience of Shogun/MTW/RTW I understood that many of you rush to develop a settlement as quickly as possible to churn out your better troops. In RTW for example this meant disbanding units etc in order to get settlements up to the next level as quickly as possible. My experience of M2TW is that I am unable to disband units in order to grow settlements and that producing units in a settlement does not reduce the population.

As the English your key historical unit is the Longbow. The majority of strategies on here recommend building Nottingham up as a Castle in order to get access to that unit quickly. After my initial campaign using this strategy I felt that it had taken a long time to get in a position to produce Longbows so it set me thinking. Nottingham starts with a population of 3,000 and a base farming of 1 whereas London starts with a population of 3,800 with a base farming of 1.5.

I decided to stage some tests.

Firstly I started a campaign and immediately converted London to a Castle whilst developing Nottingham and then London with roads, farms and ports. To my pleasant surprise once London was converted to a Castle it had basic roads; a drill square; and a chapel in place. This meant London had access to infantry already at a higher level than Nottingham. At turn 14 London was ready to upgrade to a Fortress and by turn 22 was ready to produce Longbows. Nottingham meanwhile took until turn 28 to be ready to upgrade to a Fortress and turn 36 before it was ready to produce Longbows.

Upon looking at the population growth of London I realised that as a Town it grew at a faster rate than a Castle. I wondered if I built up the Town first until it hit the population cap for the Fortress what would the result be. This I did and managed to hit the population cap on turn 8 and after converting to a Castle was ready for a Fortress at turn 10 and Longbows at turn 18.

The final 2 tests involved timing the conversion to a Castle and setting the tax level on low. The optimum result was setting the tax level on low and building Land Clearance for 2 turns and a Port for 2 turns. On turn 5 converting to a Castle meant on turn 7 just being a few individuals under the population cap. On turn 8 London was ready for upgrading to a Fortress and on turn 16 Longbows were ready for production.

So to summarise.

Following the standard strategy of recruiting from Nottingham England does not have access to Longbows until turn 36. Using my strategy the benefits of town growth and lowering taxes means Longbows can be ready for production in London on turn 16, a full 20 turns earlier. In addition to this London gives you a Castle on the main entrance to England from France as well as enabling you to build higher level infantry from your starting drill square.

I hope this is of use to somebody.

:charge:

That's a fine piece, YAKOBU, for a very popular faction. My compliments.

A very interesting tactic I havent used before.

Kudos!

A few notes:

- Merchant income appears to be affected by the market level in your capital city (see random other thread I read that in). So if you make London a castle, you will have to make certain to switch your capital to a different city that has a good market level. This likely means capturing Paris early, or else flipping Nottingham into your capital city (in which case you do suffer an economic setback and will have to work some to advance it economically). No other city in the area can probably tech up quickly enough to do a good job in that role. You could possibly take the Scottish capital as your own, but it's far enough removed from mainland Europe that you'd be penalizing yourself via distance to capital. Paris is likely the best location, but has the drawback of diverting troops from your British Isles conquests...

- It's possible some of the buildings in London do not transfer if you flip it to a castle (I simply don't remember). It would be beneficial to find out which, and demolish them for cash instead of simply letting them vanish. Same goes for Nottingham if you choose to flip it to a city as compensation for losing London's city revenues.

- I would use this strategy not for Longbows, but rather for Armored Swordsmen. Armored Swordsmen are almost certainly the best part about getting a Fortress (and the subsequent barracks level to go with it), and for conquest purposes are vastly superior to Longbows. They also check in with the same low 150 upkeep that Longbows have, meaning you can actually support them this early in the game. I've always found the biggest pain playing England is my lack of any good troop production in the Great Brittain area - by the time Nottingham techs up, the time when I needed the better troops there has already passed. So, this could scratch a BIG itch for me.

- You shouldn't need both London and Nottingham as castles, so I highly recommend turning Nottingham into a city if you make London a castle. It makes a pretty good one, even if you don't intend it to be your capital. Sea trade with the Danes is the key, I suspect.

- Try getting a chivalrous governor into London. If you can for even a turn, it's likely instead of missing the upgrade mark by a bit, you'll hit it that turn instead, thus pushing the timetable forward a turn.

Thats interesting and I haven't thought of that before. I play English mainly so I have some thoughts on how that would work with my overall strategy. While getting the longbows sooner seems useful, I would rather have the money. See, I take what I get at the beginning of the game, buy a couple of mercs and take all of the British Isles in around 10-12 turns. I use the money to immediately upgrade all of my settlements farms which helps boost the population earlier. That helps with taxes and with getting building upgrades earlier. After I take the isles, I have the pope-o-meter up enough to call a crusade on Antioch around turn 12 or so. That stack is my peasant archers, the one town militia you get, and merc x-bows. A few turns after that I have Antioch and then I have to wait the 10 turns for the next crusade. Its right before the ten turns are up that I have 7 longbows and am ready for the Jerusalem.

While your strategy would probably not work well for my style of play, I see it of great benefit for those that go for the quick army build/sack cities strategy. If your aggressive and like micromanaging, that seems to yield you more money that my build massive economic powerhouse on Great Britain/conquer lots of colonies/and let the trade roll in strategy. Also I think I try to role-play England to an extent with making London a massive trading hub which a castle would kind of mess with. Also, by longbows, do you mean "longbows", "retinue longbows", or "yeoman longbows" because I think I can get the first kind before turn 28 but I don't remember. I thought you could get longbows at a castle but I may be mistaken.

Anyways, those are just some of my thoughts on greater English strategy.

^_^

The fortress ones are the Yeomen, which are the first "real" longbows in the English roster.
Castle Longbowmen do have the range, but that does them a fat lot of good since they wouldn't hit a whale painted in a bullseye pattern from 10 yards if their life depended on it (though why would anyone's life depend on shooting a decorated beached whale with a longbow at point blank, I have absolutely no idea)

Back on topic : interesting strat, but I wonder if the longterm effects of switching London to a permanent castle don't outweigh the benefits of early plinkers... I suppose one could take Bruges or Antwerp and turn it into a trade powerhouse fit enough for a capital, but it would hardly be a safe, easily defended one. And of course, everybody wants Bruges and Antwerp, which makes it doubly risky.
I find merc X-bows are good 'nuff for early warfare, both in the British Isles against the sheep^H^H^H^Hbovine-shaggers (thanks, Didz :clown:) and against the French should they get funny ideas ahead of schedule.

Hello again ~:wave:

Thanks for your input guys. :shakehands:

After playing a game again last night I did realise I could get both the Bowyer and the Practice Range at the Castle level which would mean Nottingham would have access to Longbows quicker at turn 6. :oops:

My idea still works well for teching to the Fortress and then getting access to Yeomen as well as superior infantry. I am going to see the best strategy for obtaining a citadel later.

For my style of play I like to get access to my higher-end troops as it is they that will be with me at the end of the campaign. I prefer them to mercs so that I can build up their experience and retrain them as needed.

Generally I don't have cash problems as I prioritise building in my key settlements if funds are tight.

Foz - In 1 campaign I noticed I got a population boost because of my governor but it appears their starting stats do not give it. Can you please comment further.

:charge:

Hi again ~:wave:

After further testing this morning I found I could have a Fortress ready 1 turn earlier on Turn 10 thanks to the advice from Foz.

Turn 1
I would set the taxes on London to Low and start building Land Clearance. Rufus would take York (using mercs if necessary) and Robert would set off to Rennes. Also I would set 1 fleet moving to Rennes.

Turn 2
If Rufus gained 1 chivalry without any dread then I would set him off to govern London. Robert would lay siege to Rennes. The fleet would move next to Rennes.

Turn 3
Start building the Port in London. Robert would take Rennes (using mercs if necessary). If Rufus hadn't gained 1 chivalry then Robert always had in all my tests. If this was the case then Robert would get on the fleet and set off to govern London.

Turn 4
Continue moving Rufus or Robert to London depending on who has the highest chivalry.

Turn 5
Convert London to Castle. Either Rufus or Robert should now be governing London depending on who has the highest chivalry.

Turn 6
Nothing to do in London.

Turn 7
Upgrade London to Fortress.

Turns 8 and 9
Nothing to do in London.

Turn 10
Fortress ready !!! :2thumbsup:

From here you can go for whichever high-level troops you desire !!!


I did find that sometimes Robert or Rufus would pick up additional chivalry but this was not always guaranteed.

Using this method it's possible to keep running London as a Town until near the 9,000 population mark and then converting to Castle; upgrading to Fortress and upgrading to Citadel 1 after the other. I think this should make it possible to obtain a Citadel by around Turn 30 but may vary depending on chivalry ratings and timing of conversion.

I hope this helps further.

:charge:

That's a good strategy YAKOBU, but how about do this with Caen ? Then you can keep London as a city (it's richer IIRC). Plus Caen saves the channel crossing. Only Caen is already a castle, so that would probably not be as quick to convert to city and back again.

The chivalrous Edmund Canmore is susceptible to a pretty face. He will make an excellent addition to our breeding program.

I like a blitz in the early game, using all tools available to make a land grab. I usually take York by force, move all manpower I can possibly spare north by boat, move my spy into Edinburgh and my princess up by Inverness. If I time it right I can insert the spy as the boatload of low-grade troops and the King are coming into the harbor. The princess woos Edmund away from Scotland when he is alone in Inverness. He captures it at the same time as my King walks into Scotland by stealth or by force. Scotland eliminated, and I have a 4 chivalry governor in Edmund. Never had much use for him, till now. I will see how fast he can convert London or Edinburgh for early Yeoman.

Meanwhile in the south, all arms march on Rennes as my merchant locates the French maid to the east so my diplomat can marry her off to my heir in trade for Toulouse or some such.

10 territories by turn 10? I think its possible.

Sinan - Caen also starts off with too low a population in regard to getting high-tech troops as soon as possible.

Vlad_Impaler - Interesting idea, I will have to try that out myself. :2thumbsup:

:charge:

Vlad-Impaler - Not had much luck marrying or bribing Edmund either before or after eliminating Scotland. Must be a very rare occurance when it can be succesful.

:charge:

Eh, I just retried. I see what you mean, I was rolling twenties that day. Fifteen tries, I got him twice. My princess has only a 24% chance of success, so unless you are a fan of lots of reloads she prolly can't hook him. If you make a few deals using her as a negotiator, her odds go up but eventually he gets married off anyway. But... he has 4 virtue, which would boost Woodsmens guild interest in your fortress-to-be.

Strategic marriage to deprive future enemies of great leaders. Tactical diplomacy?

Pushing for fast longbows? Why not add the Woodsman's Guild?

A quick review of davebabys guide suggests that:
Points for building archers at 10 per for Peasant, 15 per for Longbows. Installing a gov. w/ chivalry of 4+ gets 5 points per turn. (Edmund!)

So, cranking three peasant units per turn with a chivalrous governor nets 35 points per turn. Five turns gets 175 points and you qualify for 1st rank of Woodsman's Guild. Do it before turn 25 and avoid trickle drain of prestige.
Now you are building longbows or better, and maybe get a perk of +10 points for going from fortress to citadel. Seven more turns at fifty points accrued per turn plus the ten for the upgrade and you are all set for Woodsmen HQ. Early Sherwood archers could be some fun.

Is the valour boost worthwhile?