Janissaries, can someone explain them to me?

Can someone explain why a 12/10 AP unit costs over 800 gold while other heavy infantry, like Dismounted English Knights, cost just over 600 gold and have much better stats(21/13)? Is "Very Good Morale" worth that much?

Also, why when I face aforementioned units off in a custom battle, are the Janissaries able to inflict heavy losses on my knights, almost to a 1:1 ratio? This is medium difficulty.

Last question, a bit unrelated. If a heavy infantry has a shield, like Varangian Guard, should I assume that their stats while meleeing is actually 20/12?

Thanks

Well, by some strange reason Janissaries were THE BEST heavy infantry in the game. Nothing on foot could beat them, ever. But after 1.02 they are just a good heavy infantry, probably as good as DFK. In 1.02 the lack of shield means your unit is much weaker no mather wat the stats say. The Varyags do no have a shield, they have one only before the melee beguines, for arrow protection. As for the janissaries-they must be expensive. They come out of town. I personally sacked Europe whith stacks of 6 of them, 7 spearmen and 6 sipahis. All coming out of large city. So I was instopable. Only Milan is easy, but they need huge citys. Although weekend janissaries are still priceless.

Yup, JHI were balanced in a 1.0 environment when the shield bug was still in effect. This allowed them to beat DFK's even with inferior stats. Now that the bug is fixed in 1.02, JHI's stats aren't good enough anymore. They may have good availability but that's not the point. JHI are suppose to fight at least equally with the best European swordsmen.

Against short polearm units like D[N/P/E]K's however, JHI's still perform satisfactorily due to the absurdly slow attack speed of said units. I guess you can say it's two wrongs making it right.

Bob the Insane ran some tests regarding the VG's shield. It turns out it has zero effect on missile defense. We don't know about it's effect in melee though. Here's the thread for reference:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83562

Shield bug sounds familiar, can someone explain it to me?

As for coming from a city for the higher expense, aren't Varangians built in a Huge City? I think they are cheaper than both too.

I didn't know there was an attack rate for melees. I understood for missle units, that's what makes high-end longbows equal or better than high-end crossbows. Is there a good data resource for melee attack speeds. And since they are both polearm units, why would DEK attack slower?

The shield bug had as effect that the defense value of the shield was subtracted of the total defense value.

JHI still are very good infantry. Expensive yes, but very reliable in mêlée. If you have something that can stop a cavalry charge and you attack with JHIs: WOW (and I don't mean World of warcraft). I have beaten every heavy infantry (except Varangians which I have never met) with my JHIs.

Edit: If you can manage to get a swordsmith guild (difficult but possible) your JHIs will rock.

I honestly think this helps balance the JHI a little. I was getting sick of sending 4 units of JHI against 10 DFK's and coming out with only 10% losses at most

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Originally Posted by WhiskeyGhost

I honestly think this helps balance the JHI a little. I was getting sick of sending 4 units of JHI against 10 DFK's and coming out with only 10% losses at most

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You faced AI armies with 10 DFKs in them ???????????:jawdrop: you are one lucky guy ~:mecry:

As things stand now (the unit being "balanced" for 1.00), JHI's are not really what they're supposed to be. Their stats are similar to an average Ax-handling barbarian unit (Croatian axemen, etc.) and the gap between JHI's and dismounted English knights, for example, is enormous.

I guess, to balance things out, we need to upgrade their attack considerably or give them a spearwall formation.

IMO, The thing that JHI needs is more defense:

Janissary archers have a defense ability of 8, i think
Janissary muskets have a defense ability of 9
How come JHI, the melee experts of the janissaries, have a defense ability of only 5? BTW 5 armour seems ok to me.

My opinion is that they should have at least the same defense ability of muskets, or even archers.

The attack value shown in the stats is actually very misleading: those 12 attack points are worth so much more thant what it may appear.

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Originally Posted by Betito

IMO, The thing that JHI needs is more defense:

Janissary archers have a defense ability of 8, i think
Janissary muskets have a defense ability of 9
How come JHI, the melee experts of the janissaries, have a defense ability of only 5? BTW 5 armour seems ok to me.

My opinion is that they should have at least the same defense ability of muskets, or even archers.

The attack value shown in the stats is actually very misleading: those 12 attack points are worth so much more thant what it may appear.

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JHI have 10 defense
JA have 13 defense
JM have 14 defense

JHI can defeat DEKs. Not easily but they can defeat them. This is possibly because of a bug in the animations of the DEK. I have defeated English armies full of DEKs, Demi Lancers and of course (sigh) mortars and trebuchets with my Turkish army consisting of 6 JHI, 6, JA, some Saracen / mercenary spears and some Quapukulu.

@Monsieur Alphonse
Yes, i am aware of the Total defense number; i just focused on the component 'defense ability' because, from my perspective, it is meant to be a direct measure of the man's "skill" to fight (well, to stay alive during a fight); and it's there where i disagree with the number assigned to JHI

Edit: Just checked the stats, and i noted that all of the janissaries have armour of 5. Also JHI indeed have 5 defense ability, JA have 8, and JM have 9

@ Betito

Since you are talking about the defense skill, I agree with you that these numbers are very odd. Why do JHI have a skill of 5 and musketeers a skill of 9? The numbers would suggest that Janissary musketeers are almost twice as good in defending than ordinary the Janissary infantry. I think that CA made a lot of very strange choices regarding the skill numbers. If you look at English heavy cavalry you will notice that the best knights (English knights) have 4 skill and the earlier knights have 5 defense skill. One would think that later units would have more skill because of the development in knowledge.

The problem is that attack and defense values can't be used to compare units. I hope that CA will correct this so people can use the stats to compare units.

Well, wearing heavier armor would restrict movement somewhat and detract from the skill aspect of defense. I agree, though, that the JHI need a defense skill buff now that the shield bug is fixed.

Don't go by the numbers, just go by results, like in real life :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse

@ Betito

Since you are talking about the defense skill, I agree with you that these numbers are very odd. Why do JHI have a skill of 5 and musketeers a skill of 9? The numbers would suggest that Janissary musketeers are almost twice as good in defending than ordinary the Janissary infantry. I think that CA made a lot of very strange choices regarding the skill numbers. If you look at English heavy cavalry you will notice that the best knights (English knights) have 4 skill and the earlier knights have 5 defense skill. One would think that later units would have more skill because of the development in knowledge.

The problem is that attack and defense values can't be used to compare units. I hope that CA will correct this so people can use the stats to compare units.

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That's because of the weapon they are using. The defense value is linked at how easy the weapon the unit has is to defend with. Musketeers are armed with a sword, which is an easier weapon to defend yourself with(up close) than a halberd. There are some variations within the weapons though to reflect the different skill of the user.

All stats are actually linked to the weapons used by the unit. Attack has some standard values for different weapons(like 9 and 11 for the axe), the same goes for charge, defense, shield(size) and armour(quality).

The final stats of a unit is therefore decided like this:

1. What equipment is used
2. Which "level" of skill the user has

For example, take the DFK:

Attack 13: They use a sword, and have the highest level of skill with it, so they have an attack of 13
Charge 3: The standard value of almost every standard size weapon
Armour 7: Heavy mail
Defense skill 8: Due to the Sword, which is easy to defend with
Shield 6: They use the largest shields

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

For example, take the DFK:

Attack 13: They use a sword, and have the highest level of skill with it, so they have an attack of 13
Charge 3: The standard value of almost every standard size weapon
Armour 7: Heavy mail
Defense skill 8: Due to the Sword, which is easy to defend with
Shield 6: They use the largest shields

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Yes I know. But a JHI with 12 attack (including AP) and 10 defense eats them for breakfast. It would be nice to have those stats actually mean something. A unit with higher attack and defense should be stronger. The only reason why one could know that a JHI are very strong (other than testing) is that they are very expensive.

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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse

Yes I know. But a JHI with 12 attack (including AP) and 10 defense eats them for breakfast. It would be nice to have those stats actually mean something. A unit with higher attack and defense should be stronger. The only reason why one could know that a JHI are very strong (other than testing) is that they are very expensive.

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Well, their very good stamina is not to be underestimated. But I would guess that their uberness is due to animations.

We both know that. But look at the OP or someone using the FAUST. An inexperienced player can't rely on the stats.

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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse

We both know that. But look at the OP or someone using the FAUST. An inexperienced player can't rely on the stats.

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That's why they're inexperienced, besides, since the shieldbug is fixed, almost noone can eat DFKs for breakfast, not even JHI, it's the other way around in my experience. That animations have no or at least almost no effect was proven in another thread IIRC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monsieur Alphonse

Yes I know. But a JHI with 12 attack (including AP) and 10 defense eats them for breakfast. It would be nice to have those stats actually mean something. A unit with higher attack and defense should be stronger. The only reason why one could know that a JHI are very strong (other than testing) is that they are very expensive.

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no, they don't in V 1.02... in V 1.00 and V 1.01 - yes, JHI could win DFK's easily. not in V 1.02. after the shield bug has been fixed, DFK's wipe the floor with JFK's unless something goes terribly wrong with their charge. try it out in custom battles.