I hate this ai diplomacy...

rant...

So as Hayasdan I've reached a point where I think I've broken the back of the AS. After about 20 Heroic battle victories and the sacking of Antioch, thrice, Selucia, and Edessay and the capture of Abril, Eddesa and Ebarktan or whatever its called I finally didnt have to face any elite phalanax or heavy spears or any other super units nor to fight of massive invasions every 2 turns. just medium greek phalanax and other stuff in stacks of 2-3 every 20 years or so. Also thanks to the constant raiding and burning I had mines going in all my towns that could support it and was about to start pumping out Kataparacht Horse Arhcers...then Pontus, that was at war with AS for like 40 years, declares war on me and promptly losses its capital and second largest city but doesnt sue for peace and instead keeps sending suicidal attacks of levy hellenic spearmen at me to slow my invasion of Asia minor down....THEN Ptolomei, who havent fought more than 5 turns against AS throughout the game but who at the time at least, finally Dowed AS and recaptured a whole town sign a peace treaty with them and suddenly invade me! So instead of helping me finnish AS of and helping themselves to relatively substantial spoils, Pontus basically committed suicide while Prolomei stuck a rather large finer in my eye by destroying a whole army deep inside my territory. :furious3:

I just quit my Baktria campign. I got betrayed by two allies within 5 years in starting the game even after I sided with AS during their war with Pontus. Retarded is a good word for the diplomacy. I quit for now, I can't take it anymore. It sucks the fun out of the game.

I'm wondering... Cannot the diplomacy be scripted? It would great if the team decided to eliminate standard "diplomats" and replace them with scripted diplomacy system.

Although to a limited extent that is possible (see Rome and the Carthaginians script) to apply that to the whole game with all the variables that entails would probably simply not be feasible.

If you don't want such form of 'diplomacy' to happen, then:
1) stay away from AI borders (make sure you don't share a border)
2) Don't be too small and weak or the big boys will think you an easy target (Baktria which gets invaded by AS)
3) Don't be too large and strong, else you're seen as a threat and you'll find the AI factions around you allying and attacking you at the same time regardless of previous wars or alliances (AS, or in this case you).

Or: play Casse, and hope the Eleutheroi don't invade too soon; and remember their splendid isolation.

The problem is of course that Baktria was a satrapy until 246 or thereabout. Having to defend yourself against your masters in far away Babylonia is a bit over the top, especially in the first years.

I'd rather have it that Baktria shares its diplomacy with the Arche. The point where Baktria does not follow suit, or outright attacks the AS should be the starting point of hostile actions from the AS - who of course get paid a small tribute for their "protection."

I hope the team can find some ways to work around that a-historical issue.

The AI problem is hardcoded in RTW. I have yet to see any mods address it and in fact pretty much all of them have stated in the forums how it's WAD from CA.

Limiting your borders is probably the best way to handle it since if you don't share a border - they'll nearly always make peace.

On a side note - for the first time ever playing any version or mod of RTW as Romanii I've shared a border with a now very very large Sweboz to my north. I merely have trade rights with them, have never allied with them and have always maintained large garrisons along the border (expecting the backstab). For probably 150 years we've been at peace and they even coughed up a gift at one point. :dizzy2:

Probably thousands of games of backstabs-R-us and now this - very, very strange.

Play on Medium difficulty. It doesn't make the AI more intelligent, but it won't act like a rabid dog.

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Originally Posted by d'Arthez

The problem is of course that Baktria was a satrapy until 246 or thereabout. Having to defend yourself against your masters in far away Babylonia is a bit over the top, especially in the first years.

I'd rather have it that Baktria shares its diplomacy with the Arche. The point where Baktria does not follow suit, or outright attacks the AS should be the starting point of hostile actions from the AS - who of course get paid a small tribute for their "protection."

I hope the team can find some ways to work around that a-historical issue.

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Just as an aside>
Don't forget that the King of England was also a french duke...

...and owed taxes.

Its funny that little or no mention is made of this at the beginnig of m2tw; not even the homage owed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years'_War

hmm...those so called "diplomacy" is truly annoying....you have to destroy every neighbour of you, no hope they stay neutral or even accept their defeat.

Until now the only solution is the Forced Diplomacy Mod but in a post here one of you has talk about the Scripts between Carthago and Rom for the Punic wars....mayby its a solutuion for the Problem?

Is it possible to Programm a Script that checks the Conditions of every Fraction that is at War with you and using as a Part of the Script the Force Diplomacy Mod, force the Ai fraction to offer Peace if lets say you have 20 Regions and a big Army (probably upkeep cost as to check how big) and the AI fall below lets say 10 or so?

Or even better if you so big and they so small its force the AI to offer to be a Client Kingdom to you? since as Client the AI stops every attack at you but its not forever since those Client Kingdoms Treatys gong to be broken too.

It would help a bit if the AI looks than for other enemys and build probably their streng up and not fight hopeless fight with few troops and annoying until you crush them.

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Although to a limited extent that is possible (see Rome and the Carthaginians script) to apply that to the whole game with all the variables that entails would probably simply not be feasible.

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Emphasis added by me. So here you are then. I'm no coder, but it appears to me that this sort of script is
1) Too restricted; a human could really play depending on it to work for him
2) Too complicated - it's not just time, but also common enemies, other AI enemies; progress, and balancing it all.
3) Not really needed: it doesn't prevent harm from being done on the AI's side, it merely reduces the problem for the human - plus I find that the AI generally does send diplomats, only when the situations is in Humans favour. You should use that to your benefit; that was what the ancients did, and expected too.
4) Not accurate: (partially) it was those on/ off wars that eventually caused much of the Hellenic world, and the 'Gallic' world to be taken over by a foreign intruder (Rome).

It's RTW coding mistake(mess), there is not much you can do about it. They coded "dog eat dog" approach.

I know for certain, that in EB2 will be completely different game, due to M2TW AI being moddable.

Couple of weeks ago i tried one of the mods there on VH, and had first 200 turns of constant peace.When i finally got attacked, i won 2 battles + 1 province and got ceasefire, even alliance later with same faction.

You can adjust aggression levels of factions there with ease, and having your relations level and reputation visible helps.

Here,that is something that is out of modders hands:no:

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

1) stay away from AI borders (make sure you don't share a border)

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That's impossible in the later games and when playing certain factions.

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2) Don't be too small and weak or the big boys will think you an easy target (Baktria which gets invaded by AS)

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I know I'm small, but when I'm siding with the AI on their wars and giving them massive tributes, and they attack my capital with 4 units, I mean, come on.

I know your options are limited and this is RTW's fault and not yours, it still is very frustrating.

Like I said before though, great work on the mod.

Hmm, from time to time you can get a ceasefire IF you don't take AI cities.

Especially with Baktria it should be a feasible option to station armies ASAP on the bridges which form the only way into Baktrian territory for AS (as long as it hasn't smashed Pahlava yet). This way you can hold your own outnumbered for a long, long time. (It's not that historical accurate though.)

What does the trick: smash an invading AI army - preferably ambush it, to keep casualties low - and send a diplomat proposing a ceasefire immediately after that. You may have to cough up a sum of money, so you'd better be prepared though. And it's about a given fact that this really is a ceasefire: within a couple of seasons the AI will happily start hostilities again.

Sigh. My computer cant really handle MTW 2, only a gig of ram, so I guess I'm out of luck :(

But I would like to note, that if the Rome/Carthage can be modded then I think AS should be modded as well. I think that Ptolomei/AS wars should be way more frequent because they are essentially the two big dogs of the game. And their ceasefires shouldnt just happen as soon as one captures one measily town.