Help with charges (more advanced)

Ok, so sometimes I do manage to get a nice charge going, but this still seems very random.

The trick of teh charge is, from this sites guide, the following:

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(1) you need to have a decent sized gap between your cav and your target
(2) Stop your cav to let them form up if need be (i.e. if youve had them running around).
(3) Target your enemy, but WALK DONT RUN. If you run your charge will lose cohesion
(4) Leave em to it. At the correct distance your cav will break into a charge.
If youre defending against elite heavy cav or bodyguards with normal (i.e. non-spear etc) infantry then expect to get slaughtered. This is as it should be.
Use spearmen and ensure theyre in guard mode, in formation, and NOT MOVING.

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1>>> Ok, this one seems easy enough. However, this requires the target to stand completely still, alternatively it requires teh target to move in an easy-to-read way so you can intercept. This very rarely happens on the battlefield though.

2>>> Here is where the problem sets in. My knights just dont seem very well disciplined, alternatively slightly retarded. Sometimes, the "forming up" part can take the better part of a minute. In example, today it took my knights about the same time to reform as it took the enemy to cross half the map. One or two knights just refused to understand where they were supposed to be.

Bug or feature?

3>>> This is logical, but boring imho. Apart from that though, even walking makes my knights lose formation in most typesof terrain, heck, even on an open plain if the distance is anything but 10 meters.

4>>> In theory this works, but when I try to practise it a lot of things seem to go wrong. And on the notion of "spears should stand still and in guard mode to absorb the charge", is that really so? I mean, having them run a little to the side will automaticly destroy the enemys charge as it will no longer fullfill the requirements needed for a good charge, often resulting in a slow reform, letting my spears charge them instead....

Oh, and when I say "let my spears charge them", I of course mean: "take 10 seconds to reform, then wander around aimlesly, and then finaly charging, allthough only with the first line while the other lines stroll around picking flowers or something".

Charged seems bugged beyong belief still, am I the only one experiencing that?

Sure, soem of the time I get a ncie charge going, but it seeems very random to say the least.

1( Yes you need to have a decent space for your cavalry to get up to full speed. That makes sense.

2) I always try to send by cavalry round the flanks before melee battle begins, and I always position my cavalry on the flanks to help this. You will either flank them in plenty of time for a formed charge into their back or you will strip their cav/flank defence and then bang a few unformed charges into them. Both are good.

3) Don't seem to have a problem with this. What patch are you on?

4) As above.

"let my spears charge them",? Spears are good for standing still and receiving the charge because they reflect the charge bonus. They are also good at charging already engaged cavalry units, but don't send them to meet charge against charge with cavalry.

EDIT: I think charge is just right now. It's not hard to get a formed charge to work as long as you obey some simple rules. And the unformed charge is OK too, it's just knowing which one you can use and when you can use it.

Would you rather have a RTW scenario????

Kadagar_AV,

I have to agree that reforming takes FOREVER, but if you really want to insure an optimal charge, you have to wait for the "idle" animation. That is, you have to wait first for your knights to reach their destination, then for them to reform and shift about, and then finally begin their individual idle movement.

There was an early "fix" if I recall correctly way-back-when, before people had really figured out how charging works in Medieval 2. All you had to do was increase the charge distance, as it made it much easier to achieve a full-on, "lances down" charge, even from odd directions and without total unit cohesiveness.


-HomelessDepot

I always use the latest patch, unmoded game otherwise (except that I unlocked all factions).

it's the reforming that kills me usually... as an example: I played a skirmish game, as soon as game started I ordered my archrs to move in behind the spears standing just behind them. Some of the archer units didnt even get one single shot off before melee had started *sigh*

To get shots off and use this tactic, you have to manually order your archer units to "stop" when they are in about the right place, and accept that they shoot out of perfect formation.

I guess the problem boils down to that, strange pathfinding and inability for individual soldiers to do smart decisons like.

I can assure you that if my unit would take as much time to reform as they do in this game, my drill sergeant would have killed us personally:whip:

Well, I usually give them enough distance and then doubleclick the enemy, that way they don't need to be in perfect formation from the start because they will try to get into a better formation while running, by the time they start charging they will be almost up to charge speed and hit very hard, from any direction.
Just yesterday I tried a charge with a single click on the enemy and my knights stopped in front of the enemy because they couldn't get enough speed apparently, that broke the charge of course. So give them enough distance and doubleclick, they will usually do fine, having no rocks or big trees in the way can help a lot as well.
But especially when the enemy has ranged units it's usually better to just charge them with doubleclick than stand around getting shot to pieces.

A couple tricks that have worked for me are to
1) Set the Cav unit to Guard mode. This tends to keep them in formation better.
2) use a couple way points to get the unit coming in from the correct direction in fairly good order.
3) If I can't let them stand around for a bit forming up properly, I'll have them run (doubleclick) towards an enemy unit until they are about 8 horselengths from the enemy. At that point I single click on the enemy and more often than not they do a real (if a bit ragged) charge on the enemy.

Several factors that I've notice affect how well a unit can charge are
1) How fast the unit itself is. Faster units seem to get in formation quicker.
2) How experienced the unit is. More experience = Better formation
3) If the enemy is stuck in place or not. Charging a unit engaged in close combat works much better than attacking one just standing there.
4) Target cohesiveness and facing. Charging into a standing line of spears from behind works much better than charging the side of the formation. Likewise if a unit is in line formation (37x2) rather than tight packed (9x8) charges seem to work better. If a unit is spread out because they are fighting a couple units they can be very hard to effectively charge.

isnt guard mode just for telling your units to stand still and not follow escaping enemies? :inquisitive:

It also seems to make them want to stay in formation more. I've noticed that if I have two cav units moving along, the one with Guard on tends to take less time getting its act together. I've not timed them, so I'm not positive, but that is the impression I get.

I think it's mostly about staying in formation. If some spearmen are attacked and are in guard mode, they will keep their spare formation, if they are not in guard mode, they will spread out as usual and run toward enemies to attack them.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

1>>> Ok, this one seems easy enough. However, this requires the target to stand completely still, alternatively it requires teh target to move in an easy-to-read way so you can intercept. This very rarely happens on the battlefield though.

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That is why the easiest way to do a charge in is to do a simple head on charge. And the nice thing in it that the target will be moving towards you. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

2>>> Here is where the problem sets in. My knights just dont seem very well disciplined, alternatively slightly retarded. Sometimes, the "forming up" part can take the better part of a minute. In example, today it took my knights about the same time to reform as it took the enemy to cross half the map. One or two knights just refused to understand where they were supposed to be.

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Hit back space when the knights reached the position you want to charge from.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

3>>> This is logical, but boring imho. Apart from that though, even walking makes my knights lose formation in most typesof terrain, heck, even on an open plain if the distance is anything but 10 meters.

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You dont have to walk. I always double right click on the enemy and it works fine. (i.e. your knights will be running up to the target and charge in)

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

4>>> In theory this works, but when I try to practise it a lot of things seem to go wrong. And on the notion of "spears should stand still and in guard mode to absorb the charge", is that really so? I mean, having them run a little to the side will automaticly destroy the enemys charge as it will no longer fullfill the requirements needed for a good charge, often resulting in a slow reform, letting my spears charge them instead....

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Correct observation. The easiest way to "disrupt" a charge is to move sideways-backwards. The knights acting like a heat-seaking missile will try to follow your move (instead of carrying on with the head on charge which still would obliterate the half of the enemy unit) which will slow them down, bunch them up thus resulting an inefficient charge.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I think it's mostly about staying in formation. If some spearmen are attacked and are in guard mode, they will keep their spare formation, if they are not in guard mode, they will spread out as usual and run toward enemies to attack them.

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This is my impression/expirence as well. I really only use Guard mode with spears anyway.

When charging, I always use single click and wait some seconds until they are in proper formation. Then I hit the run button. Works every time!

Use the run button so that they keep their formation. If you double click, the previous order will be cancelled and they wont perform a lances-down charge.

If you want to do multiple charges, dbl-lft click would be much easier to execute.

It's possible to get your cav out immediately after a successful charge, w/o losing more than 1-2 men, and repeatedly execute a charge again. Terrain wise, it's always easier to charge downhill.

My feel is that Cav's primary adv. is in mobility and charge bonus. So it's always more useful to get them to do repeated charges, instead of melee.

As to slow forming up, I will click and drag a a formation at the same place. many times this will help them form up quicker.

Regarding forming up - sometimes hitting "c" (loose formation), wating a second, and then hitting it again (tight formation), speeds up the process.

My trick to make forming up faster is order "halt". (hit backspace)

If only few knights struggling to get to order, the AI ignore them and shows the unit as "idle".

Well, you could just get VanillaMod, and have charges work as you'd expect them to :idea2:

I've noticed that units are less inclined to obey orders when grouped together e.g. not breaking-off pursuit or not charging when you want... but when the same units are ungrouped, they react to your order better (maybe AI has more influence on grouped units?)

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Originally Posted by IncubusDragon

I've noticed that units are less inclined to obey orders when grouped together e.g. not breaking-off pursuit or not charging when you want... but when the same units are ungrouped, they react to your order better (maybe AI has more influence on grouped units?)

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Nice catch IncubusDragon, i felt that too. Sometimes when a group doesnt get to order, i select their units one by one and command "halt", somehow they obey this time.

As many o you knowi the game engine have a habbit to "seperate" the orders. Like when you order a group to charge an enemy unit, all your units select an enemy unit to attack. Probably something like that confuses the game engine during halt order.

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Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV

4>>> In theory this works, but when I try to practise it a lot of things seem to go wrong. And on the notion of "spears should stand still and in guard mode to absorb the charge", is that really so? I mean, having them run a little to the side will automaticly destroy the enemys charge as it will no longer fullfill the requirements needed for a good charge, often resulting in a slow reform, letting my spears charge them instead....

Oh, and when I say "let my spears charge them", I of course mean: "take 10 seconds to reform, then wander around aimlesly, and then finaly charging, allthough only with the first line while the other lines stroll around picking flowers or something".

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Yes absolutely. the horses charging head on into a spear or pike wall is EXACTLY what you want.(if you are the one being charged anyways ;) )

if you have other troops being charged, then sure go ahead and find ways to disrupt the charge.
But as spearmen, the force of the cavalry running into spears is a good thing.