Why Marxism will ultimately succeed - as real capitalism

This is a rant, but one I challange those that oppose the premices to justify why not.

The working middleclass is under attack - the very retirement system the unionized fathers fought for is under attack by corporate forces they elect to congress - the democrats are willing to betray them to acquire power and the republicans have spent 80 years coming up with reasons to kill unions. The death of unions in America is all but inevitable. Or, not.

Thank Zeus, for those indoctrinated with the concept that having to pay union dues is a bad thing - those that received the benefits unions created (minimum wages, health & life insurance, forcing companies to acknowledge their workers are humanbeings) they always knew it was wrong to give anything to the workers. I mean corporations have always been good to their workers - just name an incident they weren't in the past 100 days.

Besides, consider the adjustments that corporations were always willing to pay health insurance or compensation for injury to those it occurred to without their actually being held resposible for (seems if they ain't guily they are more willing to pat a pitance than if they might actually be held responsible = leave those in control alone.
Or, we gain control of the democracy; we define what democracy is - and we define it as "greed is good" - manipulation by expressing the American (how the world sees us) dream (taking advantage of anyone one knows).

After all, we all know, corporations are and have always looked out for the goodwill of all their employees - be they making a dollar a day or five thouisand a day, pr if they could turn them into slaves.

Oh, wait - we now have CEOs making a $million a day. One must realize though that it can be really hard to get by on a million a day - unless you haven't been there ... don't judge them.

Then again we have 8billion people on a piece of sand in the sky. Most of whom work for barely enough money to survive - imagine if you will (walk in their shoes for a day - or reject the posibilty simply because you are white) that to exist you will accept do just about anything for you and your family to survive.


A world of 8Billion and corporate powers playing the religious cards to turn the ignorant upon themselves - versus facing the fact that the wealthy know how to own them (all of us), twist things back to their advantage.

Nothing new here - it is as it has always been. Except, they now have a buncha a nut cases that want to turn the world into "one" religion (Islam - or Baptist - take your choice) and by continueing their 200 year plan they may not only destroy the unions (and being inclined to paying fair wages), but they can destroy that pesky idea of equality.

You know - like we are all equal in a democracy? Ask Europe what they think about our US style of democracy - hell, ask an Iraqi.
To continue - Democracy will fail because of the few. It will fail because those with wealth are unwilling to share it. It will fail in America when the corporations that shared with employees cease sharing with the sons of the fathers that served them.

Marxism will ultimately succeed because of the greed of the few - and the few's confidence of convincing themselves that they can always create truths that the 8Billion will accept as their new reality, or continue as is - letting the less fortunate

Of couse now that the corporations own the right to do, say, or own anyone - who knows.

But, they do make a case for Marxism. Don't they?

Hmm, I take issue with the vast majority of what you wrote, but I'm just going to ask a question -- can you show me an example of functioning Marxism? Anywhere? I really suspect that market economics are as good as it's going to get for a while. I'm not religious on the issue -- I don't think free markets are the cure for every ill under the sun -- but nobody's come up with a better solution for harnessing human greed, ingenuity and creativity.

But you know what they say -- in the '90s capitalism defeated communism, and in the '00s capitalism will defeat democracy. I don't really believe that, of course, but it makes me giggle like a schoolgirl.

A bad day Kafir? :beam:

Anyway, I'm not sure how after a general indictment of capitalism you proceed to conclude that "Marxism will ultimately succeed" out of the blue. I mean, sure, they're usually portrayed as opposite ideologies and all that, but still.

Unless of course you merely bring Marx up as to allude to his (excellent) indictment against capitalism, as I'm not sure how his (wishy-washy utopian) own models is worked into the rant's conclusion.

The Greed goes both ways with unions and corporations. Once again, I'll use my union filled state, one of the last actually, Michigan, as an example.

During the 1990s when everyone was making money, the auto manufacturers in Michigan, for example, the unions demanded better wages and benefits. Sure, good for them, they deserve a little more, but a limit was needed. What they did unfortunately, was get greedy. They demanded more, more, and more. I mean, they were paying people 60 bucks an hour to cut the flipping grass!!! GM/Ford realized that this was not good in the long run and they couldn't afford it in future years, but at the moment, they didn't care enough to say no. They were making loads of cash, and didn't want to make the unions angry. So they caved to most, if not all, of the unions' demands.

Now, what's happening today? These companies cannot pay for what they agreed to anymore due the recession we are having in Michigan. What's happening is mainly the young union members are getting screwed over. While GM and Ford still have to pay the older ones pensions and such, they don't have much for the younger ones.

It was a two way street of moronism (I made that up :yes:). It's easy to blame corporations, but there are usually more people at fault.

I fail to see how Marxism will take over capitalism. Like Lemur stated, show me one successful Marxist economy. I'd be awfully surprised if you did.

Capitalism has it's flaws, there will always be winners and losers, but with Marxism there will only be losers.

Funny enough, Marxism worked. Not in it so-called application in some countries, but in its basic analyse:
People fight each other for power, to take from the rich to give to poor. However, when some poor become rich, they defend their new class interest: See USSR.
Marx is a thinker of the 19th Century, so because the new values of the Capitalism are basic 19th Century rules (free market will solved every thing), so yeap, Marxism is still valid.
And give me one country where capitalism worked? Where thank to Capitalism all people have a dignity in work, enough to sent family in holidays and kids to school…
If Socialism and Communism did appeared it is because Capitalism failed… But now, we have fundamentalism… Much better…:juggle2:

What I find interesting about the rant Kafir is that the industry I just started working for is unionized and can shut down the nation if the collective bargaining breaks down. Both the corporations involved in the negotations and the unions themselves have to cooperate and bring about wage, health, and retirement packages that benefit both.

ie check out the Railroad unions.

"The theory of the Communism may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property."
"From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his needs."
"Communism deprives no man of the ability to appropriate the fruits of his labour. The only thing it deprives him of is the ability to enslave others by means of such appropriations."
"Democracy is the road to socialism."
"Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. Working men of all countries, unite!"
-Marx-

Communism has never come to power in a country that was not disrupted by war or corruption, or both."
-JFK-

"How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Reagan-

"For us in Russia communism is a dead dog. For many people in the West, it is still a living lion."
"I have spent all my life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society without any objective legal scale is a terrible one indeed. But a society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy of man either."
"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State."
-Solzhenitsyn-

"Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff."
-Zappa-

Then there is another one about new world order not being a new world order....

Thought I bring in some good quotes.

Actually one of the earliest experiments in socialism took place in what would become the United States. It was the Plymouth Colony. It soon failed however as people being people resented doing work for others that they saw no benefit in....

People seem to resent that! Even if the benefit is delayed or not immediately evident.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

"How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin."
-Reagan-[emphasis mine]

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lol. :juggle2:

Evil Empire ahahaha. Next time find someone less...vested...if you're gonna bring out Quotations Are Always Right 101.

I'm no fan of Marx and his strange ideas, but seriously. Nobody in his right mind (well, except the capitalists) would say that pure laissez-faire capitalism isn't also a dystopia in the making. The USA, bastion of rightist liberalism and all that, is a mixed economy for a reason.

The reason capitalism doesn't work (sometimes) is because the government intervenes in such a way as to break it, for one reason or another.

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Originally Posted by Brenus

And give me one country where capitalism worked? Where thank to Capitalism all people have a dignity in work, enough to sent family in holidays and kids to school…

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Uh, try most of the Western Democracies in Europe and North America. I said it had its flaws. Every system has winners and losers, there is no perfect system that can make everyone happy, make everyone equal. That is a pipe dream.

Regulated Capitalism is probably the best system we have.

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Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good

The reason capitalism doesn't work (sometimes) is because the government intervenes in such a way as to break it, for one reason or another.

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You have GOT to be joking! That is pricisely the reason it DOES work!

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Originally Posted by CountArach

You have GOT to be joking! That is pricisely the reason it DOES work!

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According to some economists. There are many different theories.

Tariffs and the like are governments meddling in capitalism. And it's terrible. We're screwing (for instance) Brazilian farmers and ourselves over ethanol. The US farmers have made the government place a tariff on foreign ethanol that can be made more cheaply from sugar cane instead of corn.

I'd say 9 times out of 10 government intervention is worse than unrestricted capitalism. And I'm not sure about the 10th.

Every man, woman, and child on earth should watch "The Corporation". Its very enlightening.

part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pin8fbdGV9Y

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People seem to resent that! Even if the benefit is delayed or not immediately evident.

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Americans seem to resent that. For Europeans it is taken as granted and frankly, I wouldn't change it for the world.

It seems to me that the US is moving in a direction where 1% of the people will own 99% of the wealth. You should do something before it is too late. Whenever in the human history wealth was concentrated to just a few people outside the goverment (the classic example would be the "Dynatoi" of the Byzantine era), the state was fighting for survival immediatly after.

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People seem to resent that! Even if the benefit is delayed or not immediately evident.

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The dissolution of the corporation is the sine qua non of democracy.

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the state was fighting for survival immediately after.

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Or in this case, a severe case of depression.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

Every man, woman, and child on earth should watch "The Corporation". Its very enlightening.

part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pin8fbdGV9Y

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Hehe, we got to watch that in school :2thumbsup: Public Education FTW!

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Hehe, we got to watch that in school :2thumbsup: Public Education FTW!

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They made you watch socialist propaganda in school? :sweatdrop:

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The dissolution of the corporation is the sine qua non of democracy.

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What, all of them? They are useful for some things...

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

They made you watch socialist propaganda in school? :sweatdrop:

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Yup, and I loved every minute of it.

Ironically it was in my Business Studies class. I mean come on! The second most capitalist subject in the school (First being Economics)!

As we're running a bit of a economist thread.

What do you predict will happen when there's more people than jobs?
And before you post something about that the market will expand and create more jobs, follow me through.

Agriculture: Employment: goes down. Production: goes up. Cost effective
Industry: Employment: goes down. Production: goes up. Cost effective

So what are the cost effective steps in the Service industry? Less people doing more job. And the new jobs is created in what sector....?

Or if you don't agree with the above, to give a more extreme example, 1 working adriod for every human (and no absurd maintenance need).

So what do you think will happen? A severe distiction between an upperclass (employed), and underclass (unemployed)?
State creation of "unneeded" jobs to preoccupy the population? Severe cut down in working hours? Some other socialistic move? Or something else?

Personally, I get the feeling that capitalism will in the end be it's own largest enemy to exist as an economic system.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

They made you watch socialist propaganda in school? :sweatdrop:

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Better don't come here to the Netherlands, the red machine kicks into higher gear the minute the youngsters can read. They-are-so-right :thumbsdown:

The country where I live suffered one Marxist experiment...

The Marxism is a good theory but it is a failure in practice.

1) Greed of the few? In the capitalism human exploits the human... In the marxism it is just the opposite :evilgrin: . There are always leaders who practically occupy the power.. and the national wealth.

2) The abolishment of the private property... What happens next... Everything is public, consequently (as it happens in practice) it is to nobody... Consequently, everybody steals and lies how progressive the regime is.

3) The abolishment of the private property... (part II )There is lack of interest, the control is impossible ( because the national government rules the whole economy which is definately very very hard if not impossible). And the prices are fictional, they can not control anything. This also ruins the economy.

4) The exceptions: China. These are highly disciplined society and they are such from centuries. However, what happens now in China is not exactly marxism. Practically, the economy is a mixed one (including capitalism and central planning) and the Communist party preserves its power. In addition the Chinese system is changing and I am interested how far it will go. So it is not marxism...

Sorry, but although the capitalism has many drawbacks, its variations are better than the alternative. And the Marxism is definately the way out. And one extra reason is that after it collapses it will lead to worse capitalism. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Ironside

State creation of "unneeded" jobs to preoccupy the population?

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This has already happened in my country, and yours.

As to the result of too many people, not enough jobs. The answer is ancient, War.

We will fight a war until there is enough land and enough jobs to go around, i.e. enough people have died.

At this rate it's going to be a long and bloody one.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Better don't come here to the Netherlands, the red machine kicks into higher gear the minute the youngsters can read. They-are-so-right :thumbsdown:

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Hey, don't make your country sound so bad! I really liked those bike lanes you guys had all over Amsterdam. Plus, I mean, every 5 feet I walked I ran into a coffee shop. Finally, you guys have the red light district! I mean, you could get high, take your bike, and ride through the red light district!

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

People seem to resent that! Even if the benefit is delayed or not immediately evident.

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The ability to wait for a delayed benefit is also what helps people become successful in the corporate culture... particularly for those who own their own business or those who are worker bees with qualifications...

Yes, it looks capitalism works in Africa, Central and South America (the success of Videla and Pinochet…), most of the Asian Countries…
Brings happyness to every body...:inquisitive:

By the way, Marxism and Communism are not the same things. Marxism is a way to analyse economy, communism is a political movement based on suppression of private property and sources shared thought by people like Baboeuf, more than by Marx…

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Originally Posted by Brenus

Yes, it looks capitalism works in Africa, Central and South America (the success of Videla and Pinochet…), most of the Asian Countries…
Brings happyness to every body...:inquisitive:

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There is more to it than just capitalism. I'd be willing to bet you a large sum of money that Marxism would fare worse or the same than the current market system that are in place.

:laugh4: “I'd be willing to bet you a large sum of money that Marxism would fare worse or the same than the current market system that are in place.” We won’t know, the only time a Socialist President was elected he was killed during a coup…

But I would agree with you. There is more in these countries. It is call dictatorship… And it what was in the so-called Eastern Democracies… So Marxism is not to blame as such but dictatorships are…:beam: