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I need advice :feedback: to properly (historically accurate) deploy Marian Cohort battle formation, since I already tried to arrange them in quincunx formation with no success (in fact the result had always disastrous) :skull:
BTW is there any reference books/reading materials I should read :book: related with Marian Cohort battle formation and its variant? :idea2:
Thank's beforehand for any advice you might given :beam:
3 Lines, not Quinquix, since RTW can't realistically do it, too many gaps in the line, not enough troops.
The basic principle is that your units are always facing your enemy fresh and alert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf The Great
:clown: :2thumbsup:
IIRC, it was something like this: https://i199.photobucket.com/albums/...eployment2.jpg
almost yes... though the lines touched each other, your formation has too many and too big gaps...
I use the quincunx formation with some succes though, it did always result in the slaughter of many skirmishers but when my hastati punched in, they usually got the job done.
But you need to mod a few things to get a proper legion.
1st, mod all roman premarian (camillan and polybian) infantry units to a 240 on huge, which is 60 on default.
2nd, change the attack value of your skirmishers darts to a higher one, 8 or something like that.
This way your legion would have around 4500 men which is the closest you can get to the real number of a roman legion. Conquer a part of the meditaeranian and you can field 4 of the legions, they will make a formidable force. The make up would be something like this: 1 general, 1 equites romani, 4 veles, 5 hastatii, 5 principes, 2 triarii, 1 accensii and 1 rorrarii.
it was a rough diagram....
The Marian Legion was deployed in three lines with four cohorts deployed in the first line and three in the 2nd and 3rd line. All three lines would be the same length and so the four cohorts in the first line are deployed deeper than the others. In front of the cohorts were the normal skirmishers and cavalry was on the wings.Quote:
Originally Posted by varuna
Of course, that is just a legion. An army of the Marian era would have several legions and all attached cavalry would be posted to the wings of the entire formation.
oops- i guess i was wrong.... :surrender2:Quote:
Originally Posted by abou
you portrayed the quincunx formation... it was still used in marian times I think. It's just one tactic the romans used, they didnt used it all the time, and not every general used it. Though indeed it was used less after the marian reforms because marius changed from manipels to cohorts and cohorts were less suited for this formation.
The quincunx formation usually ends up costing me huge amounts of soldiers, so I tried three straight lines. That was too costly too, sense the enemy can easily flank your short line. I usually fight with two lines, so that I can actually counter the enemy's moves, based on the game's limitations.
So the manipular formation was considered obselete by Marian's time? I've used it with great success well after the Marian reforms. Should I try something new?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Well, the quincunx just wasn't used anymore. I can't think of any instance in which it was used after the change in the military. In fact, by imperial times the basic formation was reduced from three lines to two - five cohorts in each line. The first line, however, was longer due to the double-sized first cohort deployed on the far right.
Very interesting. I didn't know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by abou
Thanks for the insight.:2thumbsup:
You could try this:
https://img381.imageshack.us/my.php?...ohorts20rs.jpg
Legionary cohorts (doubled) in a loose checkerboard with light auxilia and skirmishers in the gaps; they prevent the enemy from outflanking the foremost cohorts and wears them down. Charge through with the second line when necessary.
The same system works neatly with earlier units as well in the smaller manipular formation, at least against AI.
how narrow are your lines? most of your enemies will come at your at least 8 ranks deep on huge sizes, but with 2 reinforcing lines to back up your first-rankers, you can put the front line 3 or 4 deep, and the rear lines 2 or 3. That'll keep you from getting outflanked by a similarly sized opponent, and I find my troops usually hold up really well, even though the formation seems dangerously thin.
Though I haven't played my Romani LPP campaign since versions got upgraded, I found putting the first rank of Marian legionaries on hold formation allowed them to last a long time against much deeper enemy forces, and allowed me to either reinforce them with similar long second lines to continue wearing down the enemy, or mass a unit from a rear line for a heavy assault at a weak point in the enemy lines, and force a breakthrough.
Narrow? Er, thin? The cohorts are some 8 men deep, the loose order light inf is just a few lines. The light infantry in loose formation won't do much damage there for certain, but they give in slow in melee (provided they don't face a massed cav charge, of course). Slow's the key word here - they just take the brunt of the charge and fight a bit, then you swap in the heavies. Then there's the bonus of having a ridiculously wide frontage with sufficient depth...
I'm saying you should stretch them out yourself. Legionary cohorts usually fought 4-5 ranks deep, so there's no reason with our smaller units that you should use even deeper ranks.
Thank's for your enlightment in the subject:idea2: I'm going to give it a try. One more thing I need to know is how many ranks is the depth of each cohort since the 2nd and 3rd line would be thiner than the 1st line thus will be more vurnable on the flank.:feedback:Quote:
Originally Posted by abou
Thank's beforehand.
I agree with ABOU. In imperial times the legion was deployed in 2 lines, in each line were 5 cohorts and the first cohort on riht was "Thousand cohort".
Paullus, when you put your units 4 ranks deep in EB, they'll be pushed back so fast that they'll split in the middle, defenitly when you use the "Stand Ground" button. In the real roman army they may have fought 4-5 ranks deep, but there usually were more than one legion fighting, more auxilia's to back them up and the enemy would'nt push them back so hard but the romans would push THEM back, because they use their shield to push and stab.
@Bootsiuv, you can ofcourse still use the quincunx formation after the marius reforms on EB but they just weren't used anymore in real, like said before. In EB it doesn't matter because you use neither a manipel nor a cohort, you use something in between. So the reforms in EB would only provide you better units but not a different army.
Can't really say offhand. That's a lot of math actually, depending on what unit size you're playing on. You'll just have to experiment to see what works. Set them in the single line formation and then just click and drag. I wouldn't really worry about flanking though - to flank a formation that is three lines deep... well, you would have to come from behind to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by varuna
A nice place to stick your general though would be between the second and third line. Hopefully, if you've done it right, he'll be close enough to inspire the men in the front line, but still be out of missile range from javelin attacks.
....Gwuh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassem
I think even two lines is overkill for the small number of units you are able to command on the battle map. The Romans would have used multiple lines to provide some defense in depth in a very long battle line with several legions. I usually use one and a half lines in my battles, and I think that's a good fit for the smaller scale of combat in the game.
i usually use 1 line of infantry supported by 1 line of cavalry and missile... with phalanx atleast. my infantry pins them down, my cavalry swoops down the flank and routs them. then I swoop my flanks around those still fighting in the middle, if they dont rout immediatly i charge in my missile, charge with my phalanx (using their swords) and charge in my general, they usually rout quite fast. then i hunt every thing down mainly using my cavalry and missile troops. i usually annihality 90% of the enemy.
this is how i deploy my standard Marian army:
https://i199.photobucket.com/albums/...deployment.jpg
(i dont know y the quality is so bad, but oh well :shrug: )
all of my armies are now like this, but my faction leaders army, i just replace the reformata with evocata, but that army is usually a show of force to other countries, i rarely fight with it, mainly because i have to go and send the evocata back to italy to retrain, which is annoying.