noble ends of villainous characters

tojo was responsible for the deaths of millions. the racist, expansionistic, xenophobic society that he led cased a lot of suffering for millions more. yet i respect the way in which he met death. when defeat was imminent, tojo stayed alive knowing the allies would need a public figure to execute at the end of the war. he also took full responsibility for the war, even though his boss, the emperor, was at least passively involved in all major decisions. this is in stark contrast to many of his subordinates in the japanese high command who committed suicide for shame of failure and fear of surrender at war's end. while they were concerned about protecting their personal honor through suicide, tojo sacrificed his personal honor to try and protect his people. he certainly had ample time to kill himself and he certainly wouldn't have risen to his position if he had been afraid of dying, so cowardice was not a motive for why he let himself be taken alive. he never had true remorse for the evils he perpertrated though and never truly atoned for the horrors he caused to millions. he was still a racist, expansionistic, xenophobe when he died and that is why he remains a villain. but in the choosing of the manner of his death, he had a much greater understanding of honor than most of his accomplices.


are there others that you don't respect what they did during life, but you respect how they chose to meet their maker?

Gaius Julius Caesar. I am with Cicero 100%, and thought that there were better ways to keep the Roman Republic functioning than make it an autocracy. And using the old Roman fear of the Gauls as a pretext for slaughter, simply to gain the political upper hand in Rome, was the mark of a despot.

However, when rumours started spreading that a plot on his life was afoot, Caesar dismissed his guards and pointedly mingled with the crowds in the forum, a daring move. And when the final end came, and he knew it was hopeless, Caesar pulled his toga over his head, a fitting final act for the Pontifex Maximus (this was done by any aristocratic Roman at times when the touch of the Gods was felt).

I certainly don't forget the massive amount of damage the fellow did, but at the end of his life he was as noble as could possibly be.

tookie williams... the founder of the crips... on death row he converted to ways of peace and was even nominated for a nobelprice...

Fascinating topic. I never knew that about General Tojo.

Isn't villiany sort of in the eye of the beholder? One man's villian may be another's hero?

I raise that point, because at the time, Chief Joseph and Crazy Horse were considered rather villainous in their day, but I consider both of them to have been most noble at the end or their days. (For the record, I consider both of them to have been heroic leaders of their respective peoples and its a chapter of American history of which I'm rather ashamed).

Charles the I of England met a somewhat noble end despite a reign of questionable leadership and probably cowardice when he went to the block he did it with dignity and did not take the chance to flee the country.

i know the black prince was villainous but then he refused to even confess his sins when he was about to die :P kept his lips sealed when the priest asked him too

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Originally Posted by nokhor

tojo was responsible for the deaths of millions. the racist, expansionistic, xenophobic society that he led cased a lot of suffering for millions more. yet i respect the way in which he met death. when defeat was imminent, tojo stayed alive knowing the allies would need a public figure to execute at the end of the war. he also took full responsibility for the war, even though his boss, the emperor, was at least passively involved in all major decisions. this is in stark contrast to many of his subordinates in the japanese high command who committed suicide for shame of failure and fear of surrender at war's end. while they were concerned about protecting their personal honor through suicide, tojo sacrificed his personal honor to try and protect his people. he certainly had ample time to kill himself and he certainly wouldn't have risen to his position if he had been afraid of dying, so cowardice was not a motive for why he let himself be taken alive. he never had true remorse for the evils he perpertrated though and never truly atoned for the horrors he caused to millions. he was still a racist, expansionistic, xenophobe when he died and that is why he remains a villain. but in the choosing of the manner of his death, he had a much greater understanding of honor than most of his accomplices.

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Actually that's not quite how it happened. General Tojo did try to kill himself. But he didn't have the stomach (:sweatdrop:), or second, for seppeku. He tried to shoot himself, but he aim was off. He missed his heart and recovered. I guess if he hadn't waited till the Yanks were at his front door (literally) to try and "keep his honour" he might have succeded. :rolleyes: The bit about protecting the Emperor from blame was true though.

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

i know the black prince was villainous but then he refused to even confess his sins when he was about to die :P kept his lips sealed when the priest asked him too

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Why was the Black Prince Villainous?
May as well call every leader of the time villainous then. Pointless really.

He has made out to be villainous, for Shakespear he was (but to me he is always the Lion of the North!). Richard III, no matter how he handled his reign went down in a blaze of glory. Perhaps so glorious that Henry the usurper(who proved his courage aswell) spent his whole life covering it up.

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

i know the black prince was villainous but then he refused to even confess his sins when he was about to die :P kept his lips sealed when the priest asked him too

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edward of woodstock? i am descended from him, dont know much about him though.

Von Stauffenberg

why ?

That man WASN'T a flawless hero of the people. He was one of many old guard Prussian militarists who believed in superiority of Germany and Germans and who accepted and supported antrocities commited in the 'wild East'.

About the noble end - you should know it already....

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Fascinating topic. I never knew that about General Tojo.

Isn't villiany sort of in the eye of the beholder? One man's villian may be another's hero?

I raise that point, because at the time, Chief Joseph and Crazy Horse were considered rather villainous in their day, but I consider both of them to have been most noble at the end or their days. (For the record, I consider both of them to have been heroic leaders of their respective peoples and its a chapter of American history of which I'm rather ashamed).

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I agree.

How about William Wallace? He probably wasn't very highly thought of by the English? :egypt:

ivan the terrible? i dunno ewether he had a noble end, he died a broken man though, mourning the son he beat to death