The Kingdom of Corinthia

The Kingdom of Corinthia

“Five hundred years later the kingdoms of the world are clearly defined. The kingdoms of the Hyborians – Aquilonia, Nemedia, Brythunia, Hyperborea, Koth, Ophir, Argos, Corinthia, and one known as the Border Kingdom – dominate the western world.” – The Hyborian Age
Capital: Corinthia (Nemedia)
Current Ruler: King Murillo

Corinthia is one of the first generation Hyborian Kingdoms. Founded during the original Hyborian drift, they are an ancient realm which exploited the trade between Acheron and Zamora to make them a rich and important nation. The canny diplomacy and then strong military allowed Corinthia to be a vassal to Acheron while still maintaining a semblance of autonomy, which was the only thing keeping them from outright absorption into either the Acheronian or Zhemri empires. During the fall of Acheron, Corinthia chose this time to assert her independence, and with the uprising of other vassals Acheron crumbled, and the Hyborian Age began in earnest.

In the 3,000 years that followed, Corinthia's military and cultural might was gradually overtaken by the younger Hyborian realms, and it's military, once the apex of Hyborian power, became anachronistic in the face of new technologies and discoveries. It is also a troubled realm, wracked by civil conflicts and insurrections, and the taxing of the populace is so extreme that many of Corinthia's brightest and strongest seek employment and fulfillment elsewhere. Indeed, Corinthian mercenaries are particularly renowned, whole divisions of them being employed in mercenary wars.

Corinthia is thus in a precarious position: like Zingara, it is torn apart by war and incompetent leadership, and must rely on mercenaries - even their expatriates - to supplement their devoted but unreliable militia. A strong enough king might be able to pull Corinthia out of the disastrous situation it found itself in at the time of Conan - perhaps enough to stop the habitual exodus of Corinthia's fighting men, and create a state military that does justice to this once mighty kingdom.

Units

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Citizen Hoplites
The Corinthians are a proud race, and the citizens who choose to remain in their home city rather than find mercenary work abroad are the proudest of all. The poorest citizens of Corinthia fight in a surprisingly coherent and effective fashion which would be impossible for a normal Hyborian militia, trained as they are in the ancient ways. Coupled with the fact that they are only usually called to fight in defense, and they are probably the most dedicated and courageous levy units in the Hyborian Age. They are armed with hefty bronze shields and short spears, and can be supplied with linen armour.

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Phalanx Spearmen
While most Corinthian citizens are strongly trained in the Corinthian manner of warfare, most are farmers and traders by occupation. However, some citizens form a local watch to augment the professional garrisons and provide a swift defense against bandits and outlaws who dare to prey on their fine cities. These citizens are organised in the Phalanx, a particularly ancient formation that served Corinthia well in the days of Acheron. Although they are considerably anachronistic, they are fortuitously the equivalent of more modern Hyborian spear infantry, and are arguably superior to these younger troops due to historical experience and prestige. Although Corinthia relies on it's cavalry as much as any Hyborian nation, their spearmen are considered in a somewhat higher regard than those of other kingdoms: rather than the fodder sent in to clear the way for the cavalry, Corinthia's phalanges have a sense of pride inferior only to the mighty Gundermen, though they are rarely utilized effectively by their foolish generals.

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Phalanx Pikemen
A new innovation in Corinthian warfare inspired by western pikemen, this is a variation on the traditional phalanx incorporating extremely long spears. Created primarily to combat the pikemen of other nations as well as cavalry, these soldiers are largely unaccustomed to using such an unwieldy weapon, and so are not as effective as those nations with a pike tradition. However, the famous Corinthian pride makes up for lack of training and experience, and their lack of heavy plate armour makes them faster and more maneuverable than most other pikemen.

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Archers
Although Corinthia tends to use levied crossbowmen and arbalesters for their missile infantry division, there exists a small number of traditional bowmen among the Corinthians, though most of these have long departed their home country. They are generally composed of hunters and archery enthusiasts among the citizenry, making them rare but well equipped and strong units.
Corinthian archers have a certain notoriety for bad behaviour, mostly because they are the least appreciated branch of the military and the most poorly paid. Rather than finding honest work in mercenary armies, they are more frequently found raising hell on the Vilayet sea as pirates, or as Kozak bandits in the east. However, if they are employed effectively and treated well, they can be a very effective part of a Corinthian force.

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Sacred Guard
“And since the royal guardsmen were not knocking at his door, it was certain that the priest had said nothing to the king, so far.” – Rogues in the House
Perhaps the most dangerous and powerful Corinthian troops, the Sacred guard are the extremely well-paid and equipped guards of Corinthia's nobility, patrolling the temples, villas and mansions of their cities. They are formed from retired mercenaries, veteran guardsmen and even a few generals and captains, and are extremely devoted to their home city. Because their wagse are paid by their individual employers rather than the state, they are very cost-effective soldiers for settlement defense, although taking them out of a city for military duty means that their extremely high upkeep falls into the royal treasury's lap, making them too expensive to be useful for military campaigning. Armed with a high-quality halberd and magnificently crafted bronze armour, they are a vital addition to the defense of a city.

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Hypaspist Swordsmen
"At that a great clamor arose, some siding with Aratus, some with the Corinthian, whom they called Ivanos. Oaths flew thick, challenges were passed, hands fumbled at sword-hilts..." - Iron Shadows in the Moon
Hypaspists, or "shield-bearers" in the Corinthian tongue, are extremely versatile and mobile swordsmen, used to guard a phalanx's vulnerable right flanks, or indeed any point on the battlefield where they are needed. They are among the proudest of Corinthia's warriors, and are usually composed of more hardened and tough soldiers than the phalanx. Due to the need for good infantry, most Hypaspists depart Corinthia as mercenary swordsmen, and would have to be paid well to consider fighting at home.

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Diplokleruch Soldiers
“When I served with the mercenaries of Corinthia we swilled and wenched all night and fought all day – aye, blood ran down the channels of our swords...” – Rogues in the House
The Diplokleruchoi, or double-soldiers, are a relatively new innovation in the Corinthian Army. These soldiers are veterans who fight on the front line away from the relative security of the phalanx in return for double the already generous salary of the average mercenary. Similar to the Nemedian Adventurers, these soldiers wield a huge two-handed sword, though due to the infancy of the division they are not as skilled in their use as their western neighbours, though their ferocity and doggedness more than compensate for their lack of finesse. Their primary use on the battlefield is to break an enemy spear infantry line, their gigantic swords breaking the spears and pikes to splinters.

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Peltast Skirmishers
Named for the Pelta, their small round shield, these soldiers are from the northern reaches of Corinthia, where the people are slightly less civilized than their southern countrymen. This makes them less favourable scholars or statesmen, but highly championed soldiers. Their mountain home has made them especially adept at guerrilla warfare: millenniums of bothering Acheron, Zamora and rival Corinthians has made them talented ambushers and skirmishers, harassing the enemy with javelins before retreating in the blink of an eye.

Other units (coming soon):

Bronze Shields (elite phalanx spearmen)
Silver Shield Swordsmen (elite swordsmen)
Companion Cavalry (Medium-Heavy Cavalry)
Mounted Peltasts (very strong light cavalry)
Cataphract Cavalry (A Corinthian variation of knights)
War Dogs (hopefully these are still possible)

Hi,

That's a good look for Corinthian troops. I am guessing that you wil put some form of helmet on the citizen hoplites etc. and are not finished with the skins and modesl yet??

Here's an idea, maybe try some purple in the clothing, or dark blue to provide some contrast with all the yelows and bronzes being used. Maybe some red too, dark purple-red, maroon maybe.

Agryaspides, Silver Shield Hypaspists etc., and another one is Chalcipides, or bronze Shields who were also elite or semi-elite troops and included eastern Greek hoplites that refused to adapt phalangite sarissas etc. and stubbornly continued to use the classical Greek hoplite panapoly.

I bet you'll make Zingara simialr to medieval Spain and Portugal, kind of obvious with the names used by Howard for some countries.

Chris

not to be critical but Companion cavalry(aka Hataori) were medium-heavy cavalry. Im also assuming youd be basing these companions on the historical ones. Good luck with the mod btw :smile:

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Originally Posted by Tiberius of the Drake

not to be critical but Companion cavalry(aka Hataori) were medium-heavy cavalry. Im also assuming youd be basing these companions on the historical ones. Good luck with the mod btw :smile:

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'Hetaroi' is the word you are looking for. Some later and eastern Agema/Hetaroi/Companion Cav. had at least partially armored horses so they would be Heavy Cav. at least for their time. However, Conan and Hyboria are fantasy, and as such may incorporate elements of Ancient, Dark Age, and medieval times as implied by Howard. So, I picture Cornithia and Argos as a blend of all three time periods, almost Late Roman or early to mid Byzantine IMHO. Romano-Hellenistic type helms would look OK IMHO, and some bronze or steel/iron curiasses/bresatplates and backplates would probably be OK.

IMHO I don't think an exact copy of Late Hellensitic troop types would be the way to go.

Chris

Thanks for the posts lads!

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That's a good look for Corinthian troops. I am guessing that you wil put some form of helmet on the citizen hoplites etc. and are not finished with the skins and modesl yet??

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The citizen hoplites will have helms in the later upgrades (when they start wearing mail). However, since these guys are "more" than just militia, I might just given them helms from the start. I guess I didn't want to evoke 300 too much (though Corinthian helms would likely be for heavier troops)

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Here's an idea, maybe try some purple in the clothing, or dark blue to provide some contrast with all the yelows and bronzes being used. Maybe some red too, dark purple-red, maroon maybe.

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I was basing the bronze look on Hellenic pottery more than anything else, but I will be trying to use a range of different colours. Thanks for the suggestions too (I mostly based the colours on vanilla Rome's Greek factions, which in hindsight is probably the last thing to do. Yikes! )

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Agryaspides, Silver Shield Hypaspists etc., and another one is Chalcipides, or bronze Shields who were also elite or semi-elite troops and included eastern Greek hoplites that refused to adapt phalangite sarissas etc. and stubbornly continued to use the classical Greek hoplite panapoly.

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Thanks, I couldn't remember what the greek term for "bronze shields" was, they were a choice too.

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I bet you'll make Zingara simialr to medieval Spain and Portugal, kind of obvious with the names used by Howard for some countries.

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You bet right! The contrast is that Howard did give us some examples of Zingaran soldiers: all we know of Corinthian soldiers is that some mercenaries that Conan fought with had swords...

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Originally Posted by Tiberius of the Drake

not to be critical but Companion cavalry(aka Hataori) were medium-heavy cavalry. Im also assuming youd be basing these companions on the historical ones. Good luck with the mod btw :smile:

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Well, technically I got a bit mixed up: I meant to put in a separate entry for Companions and Mounted Peltasts, but I forgot to add info for the two and accidentally put the info and names for the two together. :wall: Companions will indeed be very much based on Alexander's Hetairoi (i.e. medium-heavy cavalry), and the Mounted Peltasts on... erm, mounted peltasts!

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Originally Posted by christof139

I picture Cornithia and Argos as a blend of all three time periods, almost Late Roman or early to mid Byzantine IMHO. Romano-Hellenistic type helms would look OK IMHO, and some bronze or steel/iron curiasses/bresatplates and backplates would probably be OK.

IMHO I don't think an exact copy of Late Hellensitic troop types would be the way to go.

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I agree. The units I've shown here aren't the full extent of Corinthia's troops, these are just the special factional units (of which there are admittedly many, but that's part of the beauty of the Hyborian Age: any gaps can be filled pretty well with a bit of imagination). They will have some definitely Medieval troops such as knights, men-at-arms, sergeants, crossbowmen, arbalesters and some Byzantine units like Kataphracts, though they will look a little "Greek" compared to others. The Hellenic overtones are mostly just design aesthetics for the unique units.

The muscled cuirasses/linen armour are mostly for flavour, but I justify it (in game) by the fact that Corinthia is naturally abundant in copper and tin, but suffers a lack of iron. Thus, they use "traditional" bronze helms and armour as opposed to steel, though they do trade for it for some of their weapons. Generally, it works out cheaper and more effectively for Corinthia to use bronze weapons than iron/steel.

At least, that's how I justify it. :beam:

Hey alot of modders have had better luck with pikemen not having a secondary and being able to use phalanx . Have you considered this in the past or are you the ones that say screw dat ?

Looks like excellent work Taranaich, keep it going.

I like the Greek feel to the Corinth and look forward for more.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by russia almighty

Hey alot of modders have had better luck with pikemen not having a secondary and being able to use phalanx . Have you considered this in the past or are you the ones that say screw dat ?

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There is a way to get pikemen to use pikes more often than swords by changing some numbers in the EDU, which is pretty successful: they only engage with swords when an enemy is within sword's reach, and use their pikes far more often as a result. Some very basic pikemen units who can't afford swords might be stuck with pikes, but I'm happy with the pike/sword combination, it gives them a bit of flexibility.

This is some pretty amazing stuff. I especially dig the way you have those guys dressed in either bronze muscle cuirass or in linothorax.

Now your roster looks pretty cool and I imagine you have some cool concepts for the armor progression of the units.

One suggestion if I may...

Hippotoxotai, HorseArchers. Don't know if those were done in the Conan universe, but it sure would be nice to have.

Anyways, great job. I will be watching.

Many thanks, mighty EB member. :2thumbsup: I used a slight analogue for the linothorax/muscled cuirass: linothorax being regional variants of padded armour/mail, muscled cuirasses for plate. It isn't exact, but I think it works ok.

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Originally Posted by keravnos

Hippotoxotai, HorseArchers. Don't know if those were done in the Conan universe, but it sure would be nice to have.

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I might indeed: I aim for every faction to have at least one mounted archer unit, and I may use Hippotoxotai as the Corinthian's horse archer.

Read your reply, and it seems we have very similar idead. Ever think about using classic Greek body armor with a Late Roman or byzantine plumed helm?? That may give a good look and could be used for the Knoghts, especially with plumed helms and the large cheek guards of some of those Late Roman and Byzantine helms. You know what I am referring to.

Good idea about using the helms for armor upgrades too, makes it easier to actually visually identify units so upgraded.

Shield coloring is another thing that can be used, say Bronze Shields for lower level troops and Silver Shields for higher and/or upgraded level troops, and the same for helmet colors but maybe reversed, whatever suits ones fancy.

You've dome a lot of work already!!!

Chris

PS: A Praetorian Guard officer type look would be kind of interesting to use for the very elite troops, for the Infantry at least anyway IMHO. Good info. you gave about the copper and tin and bronze usage in Corinthia.

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Originally Posted by christof139

Read your reply, and it seems we have very similar idead. Ever think about using classic Greek body armor with a Late Roman or byzantine plumed helm?? That may give a good look and could be used for the Knoghts, especially with plumed helms and the large cheek guards of some of those Late Roman and Byzantine helms. You know what I am referring to.

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I was thinking the more "advanced" a Corinthian unit, the more Byzantine it would look. Corinthian knights will pretty much resemble Clibinarii, with the byzantine helms with plumes and stuff.

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PS: A Praetorian Guard officer type look would be kind of interesting to use for the very elite troops, for the Infantry at least anyway IMHO. Good info. you gave about the copper and tin and bronze usage in Corinthia.

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Well, I think the current unique Corinthian units is pretty much full, since I don't want to leave other factions in the lurch. I had initially only wanted to make four or five uniquely Corinthian troops, but I had so much fun making them I added a good dozen or so! Hopefully I can round out the other factions as fully.

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Originally Posted by Taranaich

There is a way to get pikemen to use pikes more often than swords by changing some numbers in the EDU, which is pretty successful: they only engage with swords when an enemy is within sword's reach, and use their pikes far more often as a result.

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Would you mind mentioning what that way is? I wasn't aware of a variable that determined the reach for each weapon in soldier's arsenal.

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Originally Posted by Taranaich

I was thinking the more "advanced" a Corinthian unit, the more Byzantine it would look. Corinthian knights will pretty much resemble Clibinarii, with the byzantine helms with plumes and stuff.

Well, I think the current unique Corinthian units is pretty much full, since I don't want to leave other factions in the lurch. I had initially only wanted to make four or five uniquely Corinthian troops, but I had so much fun making them I added a good dozen or so! Hopefully I can round out the other factions as fully.

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Ha ha ha!! 12 uniquely Corintian units you made!??! That's a lot, and good!!!

You are making some sharp units. Hey, :idea2: if you have too many unique Corinthian units just transfer some over to Argos to save some work, might be OK.

The Late Roman - Early Byzantine helm, which name I could not remember a few posts back, is the Spanglehelm and its assorted variations, both plumed and unplumed. Combine this helm with earlier Greek armor and it may look very sharp and interesting, along with trousered legs and some Praetorian Officer style helms for Gens. and some Guard units, whatever.

Chris

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Originally Posted by SigniferOne

Would you mind mentioning what that way is? I wasn't aware of a variable that determined the reach for each weapon in soldier's arsenal.

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Certainly, I just applied Condioterri SOG's formula http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1700190&highlight=pikemen+use+pikes+more+often#post1700190]as seen here. It isn't anything to do with weapon reach, but proximity between enemy soldiers. I find it very useful personally, though for some reason it doesn't work with all people, not sure why that is.

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Originally Posted by christof139

Ha ha ha!! 12 uniquely Corintian units you made!??! That's a lot, and good!!!

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Good grief, I hadn't actually counted the number! I only have three or four for poor Zingara so far... :sweatdrop:

I'm making most of the Corinthian professional units mercenaries, but the levies and elites will be unique to Corinthia. Because Argos is a "younger" kingdom than Corinthia it would have a more traditional "hyborian" militia as opposed to the hoplites, but they will have a few shared units where logical. I'm going for a Venetian/Carthaginian fusion for Argos, so although some units will look similar, they'll likely have a different reason and backstory for their appearance and formation. I'm finishing up on Stygia right now: very difficult making decent Egyptian-style units for some reason. :egypt:

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Originally Posted by Taranaich

Certainly, I just applied Condioterri SOG's formula http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1700190&highlight=pikemen+use+pikes+more+often#post1700190]as seen here. It isn't anything to do with weapon reach, but proximity between enemy soldiers. I find it very useful personally, though for some reason it doesn't work with all people, not sure why that is.



Good grief, I hadn't actually counted the number! I only have three or four for poor Zingara so far... :sweatdrop:

I'm making most of the Corinthian professional units mercenaries, but the levies and elites will be unique to Corinthia. Because Argos is a "younger" kingdom than Corinthia it would have a more traditional "hyborian" militia as opposed to the hoplites, but they will have a few shared units where logical. I'm going for a Venetian/Carthaginian fusion for Argos, so although some units will look similar, they'll likely have a different reason and backstory for their appearance and formation. I'm finishing up on Stygia right now: very difficult making decent Egyptian-style units for some reason. :egypt:

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Oh yes, you counted them :laugh4: : "I had initially only wanted to make four or five uniquely Corinthian troops, but I had so much fun making them I added a good dozen or so! Hopefully I can round out the other factions as fully."

Interesting idea about Argos and mixing of Venetian/Cartaginian types, but there wan't much difference between Carthaginians of mid 3rd Century BC and Hellenistic Heavy Inf. and Peltast types. Not too much is known about Carthaginian Heavy and Peltast Inf. types except that Hannibal rearmed and armored his heavy Inf. with captured Roman equipment. There is one Carthaginian grave stele showing a Liby-Phoenecian Hoplite type, but whether his spear was a short Phoenician/Asian or longer Hoplite spear is actually unknown, as is the question of if the Carthaginians ever did adapt the sarissa or similar longer pike. It's not known positively if Carthage ever fully Hellenized its Carthaginain and Liby-Phonecian troops, but it seems that they did to a large degree, so maybe not too much difference between carthaginain and Hellenistic armor, weapons, and troop appearance wit respect to the mid to late period Carthaginian and Liby-Phoenician Heavy and Peltast type Infantry. The available surviving orignal info. is rather sketchy and not wholly definitive.

I have to go back and read what Howard states about Argos and Corinthia, as off hand I thought they were fromed at about the same time for about the same reasons. Been some time since I read Howard's actual and way too brief descriptions and background.

For Zingara, Medieval Spanish and Portugese seem to fit the bill, with some rapiers thrown in from the Rennaissance. Crossbows maybe for some conjectural added flavor??

It's interesting and fun problemizing etc. about all this.

Chris

PS: Millenium = singular, and Millenia = plural. Someone will eventually notice this if it is wrong in a description.

Well, I only said a good dozen as a rough guess, I thought I was overshooting it! :beam:

The reason I chose Carthaginians for Argos is the fact that, like Carthage, Argos seems to rely on mercenaries for their land military, and galleys for the navy. The Argus, Tito's ship in Queen of the Black Coast was a "high-prowed, broadwaisted galley", and the Venture (the ship he hijacked in Hour of the Dragon) was also a galley. Conan sees galleons, carracks, galleys and dromonds in Messantia, so Argos appears to have quite a full and varied navy, but galleys seem to be the preferred mode of transport of the Hyborian age, since the Hyrkanians use them too. I would presume that galleys are trade and support vessels, and the carracks the standard military unit, with galleon ships-of-the-line and dromonds secondary military ships.

We know Argos was founded after Corinthia from Hour of the Dragon:

"The barbarians who overthrew Acheron set up new kingdoms," quoted Orastes. "Where the empire had stretched now rose realms called Aquilonia, and Nemedia, and Argos, from the tribes that founded them. The older kingdoms of Ophir, Corinthia and western Koth, which had been subject to the kings of Acheron, regained their independence with the fall of the empire."

So basically according to this and the Hyborian Age essay, Ophir, Corinthia, Koth, Zingara and Hyperborea are the original Hyborian kingdoms, with Aquilonia, Nemedia, Argos, Brythunia and the Border Kingdom being founded after Acheron's fall. The original kingdoms will have a number of "ancient" troop types and a few Medieval ones, while the new nations will mostly consist of recognisable Medieval ones.

However, it should be noted that Zingara was conquered by Hyborians after it was initially founded, possibly during or after Acheron's fall, giving it the characteristics of a "new" Hyborian nation like more advanced technologies.

(also, I was going to put "millenia", but Firefox's spellchecker didn't recognise it, so I changed it :dizzy2: )

""The barbarians who overthrew Acheron set up new kingdoms," quoted Orastes. "Where the empire had stretched now rose realms called Aquilonia, and Nemedia, and Argos, from the tribes that founded them. The older kingdoms of Ophir, Corinthia and western Koth, which had been subject to the kings of Acheron, regained their independence with the fall of the empire."

Yes, I see. Thanx for pointing that out about Argos and Corinthia etc. I missed it if you posted it previosuly, and haven't gone back and reread what howard said. I don't have to actually since you heve it down pretty pat!!!

Now, here's the problem with the term 'galley'. Galleys as the classical Roman and Greek galleys and even later Medieval Mediterranean Sea European galleys were not very seaworthy. However, the term galley is also applied loosely to Byzantine galleys or Dromons. So, which of these galley types is Howard referring to??

Since in Howard's stories the galleys of Hyboria sailed th large open sea, I tend to think of thenm more as Bzyantine Dromon-type affairs, although the classical galley looks better, including those used in the Mediterranean by Europeans in Medieval and Ren. Era times, like the ones at Lepanto etc. the Byzantine Dromons sem to have had a much higher freeboard and deeper hulls and I don't think most or maybe any of them had rams. I like rams.

So, I don't know how detailed you plan to get on the Naval aspects but this would be a quandry for me. I guess I would just alter a Droman-type with a little streamlining to the bow and add a ram. Rams are neat.

Sor Shem and Stygia, maybe Arabic Dhows and some sort of galley would also be appropriate.

Back to somewhat dry land, river bottom, deltaic, and swampland. Ever think of using Crocodile/Alligator armor for some of the Stygians?? That would look unique, and early Egyptians used it. Seems the Stygians were a bit ancient/primitive concerning armor and weapons that they used.

I have to load-up MTW2 and see what the Naval units look like, as I have not viewed this game yet. Everything you need for ships may be there. Less work.

BTW, I really liked your render of the Hyperborean King. It fits well with what Howard describes.

Chris

P: Don't forget lamellar armor and leather types of armor for some of the troops. Turanians and Hykranians would look good with some units with lamellar armor. You've done some real sharp work already.

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Originally Posted by christof139

Yes, I see. Thanx for pointing that out about Argos and Corinthia etc. I missed it if you posted it previosuly, and haven't gone back and reread what howard said. I don't have to actually since you heve it down pretty pat!!!

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I don't think I have posted it before, no need to worry. And I'm in correspondence with a couple of world (well, internet) renowned scholars on Howard, so I can't take all the credit.:laugh4:

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Now, here's the problem with the term 'galley'. Galleys as the classical Roman and Greek galleys and even later Medieval Mediterranean Sea European galleys were not very seaworthy. However, the term galley is also applied loosely to Byzantine galleys or Dromons. So, which of these galley types is Howard referring to??

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I personally think Howard was referring to a sort of catch-all ship "type" rather than the galley of any specific era: if any, I'd wager he based them on Italian lanterns, given their size and general use as armed trade ships. I don't think they'd be dromons, as they are mentioned alongside galleys, indicating the two ships to be sufficiently different as to be referred to separately.

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Era times, like the ones at Lepanto etc. the Byzantine Dromons sem to have had a much higher freeboard and deeper hulls and I don't think most or maybe any of them had rams. I like rams.

So, I don't know how detailed you plan to get on the Naval aspects but this would be a quandry for me. I guess I would just alter a Droman-type with a little streamlining to the bow and add a ram. Rams are neat.

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I think rams will just have to be a feature, since the only sea battle described first-hand in the Conan saga features Belit's Tigress smashing the poor Argus into pieces. I guess even when they had galleons, pirates couldn't resist an old fashioned charge :smash:

The problem is that, to my understanding, the Total War engine only allows 3 ship types for each nation: light, heavy and flagship. In this case, I think Argos would have light pentekonter-typesrramming galleys, dromonds, and maybe some monstrous polyremes like Ptolemy's gargantuan Leontophorus for the flagships. I think carracks and galleons are more "Zingaran" in style, so Zingara will probably have them.

Pentekonters would be too small, those are early Greek as in way back to the Trojan war times and up to the 1st Punic War as warships used by major powers, although smaller powers still used them as warships and probably most powers used them as couriers etc. for some good amount of time after the 1st PW.

The Hemiola types of vessels would be the smallest practical type of warship for later days, and there were many varieties of Hemiolas, or 1.5 banked ships. Trihemiola was one additional type. Hemiolas, Liburnians and other Biremes maybe also for the lowest class of ship.

Triremes, Quads., Quins., and later Lanterns could be standard Argossian and Corinthian types.

Galleasses were the huge Christian ships of the Lepanto era. I can see one of those as the flagship of Argos or Corinthia, and/or the larger Hexeres, Hepteres, and Deceres etc. types from ealier times. Those be some big boats there!!!

3-types of vessel are really plenty for each faction.

Dromons had oars and sails and were a cross between a vessel that could be used for trade or war and some were quite large, and basically an all purpose ship.

Dhows, especially the smaller ones used for coastal trade could and did have oars, but I don't think all of them did, and I may be wrong about that one way or the other.

Early carracks and galleons might fit Zingara, but not the large/huge galleons of the late Ren Era IMHO. They be real big boats!!!

Howard is unfortuantely just too vague, but that leaves much leeway for game design.

Just don't quit!!!!

Chris

PS: Oops. I just relized that Corinthia is not on the sea, so no boats that floats for them. :stupido: :yes: It's been awhile. :book: Just noticed a somehat new map too, here: http://hyboria.xoth.net/maps/chrysagon_hyboria.jpg

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Originally Posted by christof139

Pentekonters would be too small, those are early Greek as in way back to the Trojan war times and up to the 1st Punic War as warships used by major powers, although smaller powers still used them as warships and probably most powers used them as couriers etc. for some good amount of time after the 1st PW.

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Yeah, I suppose. I just like the name "pentekonter" for some reason.

I can't find much information on hemiolas, but the info was still extremely valuable, thanks!

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PS: Oops. I just relized that Corinthia is not on the sea, so no boats that floats for them. :stupido: :yes: It's been awhile. :book: J

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Well, one of the advantages of the Hyborian Age in the Medieval engine is that most of the nations are landlocked, meaning that the auto-resolve naval battles are kept to a minimum. It would have been nice to have some form of influence on the outcome, but that's the engine sadly.

However, just because Corinthia's currently landlocked doesn't mean that a strong king can't conquer territory near the Vilayet or Western sea, so I'll probably give Corinthia Argos' ship lineup for that event.

Sure, if Corinthia or another landlocked country conquers a country with a Sally on a seashore, then the conquering country gets the conquered country's ship types, easiest and a realistic way to handle it.

A Hemiola is this: It's basically a Bireme, but the upper bank of oars is only about half the number of oars in the lower bank. A Trihemiola might have 2 rowers at each oar at the upper bank of oars and 1 rower at each lower oar, or more improbably a Trihemiola might have 2 upper banks of oars each with 1 rower with each upper bank having half the number of oars as the lowest bank. Seems they were Biremes though, so the first description is probably true. Evidence and desciption lack from primary (original) sources.

I have info. on this and Hellenistic naval warfare, and there is a lot on the inet. Hemiolas were invented to save wood, manpower, and $$$, being smaller than Triremes and even having less crew than Biremes. They first appeared in the hellenistic after Alexander the Great it seems. They could be used in place of Triremes, or as flankers and a reserve in a battle, as raiders and pirates, scouts, couriers etc. They were very manueverable and became a very popular ship. The Illyrians and Macedonians had whole fleets composed solely of Hemiola types and it seems this is the main ship type Med. Pirates used. Seems the Roman Bireme the Liburnian was developed from the Hemiola, and Liburnian types and smaller ships basically became the main Roman warship of the Empire.

Also, it seems the Rhodians at the height of their fame mainly used Hemiolas and perhaps Triremes, but I may be confusing this with another Greek state, but I think it is correct.

'Pentkonter' is a neat sounding word but extra typing is required for it. 'Lazy' is a shorter word and is my substitute for 'Pentekonter'. :dizzy2: :laugh4:

***Just substitute 'Pentekonter' for any Quinquereme types and you're all set. Pentekonters had one bank of oars per side, with 1 rower per each of 25-oars. Make the ship bigger and you could have 2-rowers per oar. Add another bank, an upper bank of oars, of 12 or 13 oars with 1 or 2-rowers per oar and you have a Hemiola type ship. ***Add a full upper bank of 25-oars per side with 2 or 3-rowers per oar and have the lower bank with 1 or 2-rowers per oar and you have a Large Trireme with 2-banks of oars with 2-rowers per oar on the upper bank and 1-rower per oar on the lower bank, a Quadrireme with either 3 or 2 rowers per oar on the upper bank and 1 or 2-rowers per oar on the lower bank extra. 2-banks per side with 25-oars in each bank would give you 50 oars per side and an explanation and reason for using the word 'Pentekonter', which would then be a large warship like a Quinquireme.

Quins., Quads., and even later Triremes could have had only 2-banks of oars with more rowers on the upper bank and 1 or 2 rowers on the lower bank, or they may have had 3-banks of oars which is more probable, although Quadrireme may have very well had 2-banks of oars with 2-rowers per oar. The first Triremes had 3-banks of oars with 1-rower per oar. All this is not positively known, but 3-banks of oars seem to be the highest number of banks used for any ships, and modern tests have revealed this to be about 100% true. You may have read of this already, but I just got carried away and it is rather interesting.

Yeah, its too bad someone doesn't incorporate naval combat in a game like MTW-RTW. I guess Empire-TW has this aspect, but is is a gunpowder ers game in the time period 1700-1820, but perhaps someone will mod this ETW for Ancient and Medieval and Ren Era naval actions and land actions too, since ETW will have land warfare.

I'll stick with the MTW-RTW series etc. until a new game or a mod of ETW comes out, and that will be a couple of years.

Naval aspects are secondary in MTW-RTW series, but it's nice to have something in place.

Good luck, Chris

PS: Carthage invented the Quadrireme, which I believe was a Bireme with 2-rowers per oar and it was vary, very fast. however, it did not catch on in a big way within the Hellenistic world because the greeks were happy with their fast Triremes, and the Quinquireme became the main ship of Rome, carthage, and much of the Hellenistic world. Some Greek states did use Quads. though, and I think the Romans had a few either made and/or captured during the 2nd Punic War.

Taranaich, I'd like to propose something for the Corinthian roster. Since, A) Corinthia is based on ancient Greece, and B) it's cities are notoriously independent, I think it might be very cool to create a number of different hoplite units to represent men recruited from the diverse Corinthian cities.

One of the first things that Roma Surrectum did to set itself apart was create a number of 'unique city hoplite' units to represent hoplites from the major Greek cities:

https://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3057/cretetc3.jpg

https://img507.imageshack.us/img507/1879/pergqi4.jpg

https://img513.imageshack.us/img513/852/syrchopbl2.jpg

Originally this was something that our modeler tone did because he wanted to make some cool units, but it became a huge hit among our fans; and when you play the mod, it adds a wonderful atmosphere to the campaign. A Greek army becomes a beautiful mix of units representing the regional powerhouses -- and when you capture a new Greek region, you gain access to a new unique unit (and who doesn't love that? :beam: )

For our new release we're expanding this to encompass a few types of units (hoplites, peltasts, and hypaspists) -- so an Athenian army will have one 'look and feel', a Corinthian army another, etc.

I don't think it's too much work -- really all you need is a new shield for the skin, a new tunic color, and maybe a slight reworking of the armor or helmet. But this way you could have each Corinthian city-state have its own symbol, shared by its units. The visual impact on the battlefield would be wonderful. Also, each city can be given a tactical specialty -- maybe one has slightly better armor, another has higher attack stats, another has an especially fast Peltast unit... so playing a Corinthian campaign, part of the challenge would be learning to use your various city-states to best effect. And as you unite all of Corinth, your unit roster will increase as, one by one, the cities join the cause of the King!

Something like this was mulling through my head.

I should say off the bat that, of all the things I've currently implemented, the Greek overtones of Corinthia are probably the most controversial with the scholars I talked to. Howard had stated he had little to no interest in the Greeks of the classical age, losing interest about the time the Dorians settled, and he outright hated the Romans. Thus, I'm having to be careful about how much Greek/Roman to implement in the mod since Howard was not a big fan of either. I think Corinthia and Argos will be fine though: the obvious name allusions mean that a certain amount of Greek flavour won't go amiss, and both Koth and Ophir get Byzantine and Ptolemaic nods.

Having said that, a unique soldier for each city isn't a bad idea. The "buffer states" to the east of Corinthia and west of Zamora seem like fiercely independent and war-like cities: while Corinthia is nominally united, it doesn't really mean much at the game's start, since each city's ruler tends to do what they like and ignore the faction leader. This is also similar to the proud medieval Italian cities, so the soldiers could be an interesting mix of the two: one city could have a more "traditional" hoplite with classical-styled armour, and another a more progressive one based on the famed Italian militias.

I'm using both Corinthia and Brythunia as a sort of "showcase" of ancient cultures according to region. In Corinthia's case, all the classical Greeks get a mention of some sort. The central Corinthians are your classical greeks with a medieval tinge:

The northern cities are roughly "Thracian": the hilly terrain and isolation from civilization makes them a bit rougher than others. They are nominally civilized, but the ancient tribes still hold sway in everyday life, and their customs are somewhat unique even among other Corinthians. Their hoplites would be unarmoured save a helm, and maybe wear simple animal hides or bare chests, with perhaps a bull or the famous "angry face" of the Thracians.

The western cities are roughly "Italian": being closer to Nemedia and the greatest impact of the second Hyborian wave, the western cities have adopted a lot of later Hyborian influences, such as more extensive armour. Their hoplites would have an Italian style of medieval armour, but with classical embellishments such as greek-styled steel helms, steel "linothorax" and iconography. Their symbol would be a mythical beast like the Sphinx, Griffin and Venetian winged lion.

The eastern cities are roughly "Pontic": since the great Zhemri Empire contracted into the smaller but still threatening Kingdom of Zamora, eastern Corinthia harbours a significant Zhemri influence. As such, a few Zhemri practices have been adopted into their hoplites, which have a Pontic feel.

The southern cities are roughly "Seleucid": the proximity and influence of Koth and the Shemites means that a lot of eastern elements creep through. Therefore, the hoplites have a distinct "eastern" tinge.

Each city will be more specific, I'm planning on at least eight Corinthian cities available for conquering.

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I should say off the bat that, of all the things I've currently implemented, the Greek overtones of Corinthia are probably the most controversial with the scholars I talked to. Howard had stated he had little to no interest in the Greeks of the classical age, losing interest about the time the Dorians settled, and he outright hated the Romans. Thus, I'm having to be careful about how much Greek/Roman to implement in the mod since Howard was not a big fan of either.

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That's an interesting fact I wasn't aware of -- I guess that explains why REH never set any stories in ancient Greece! Though I would suggest that, as important it is to keep to the spirit of Howard's world, it's also important to create a fun game-playing experience, and Total War fans love Greek and Roman units -- so I would suggest balancing what the scholars say with what would result in the most fun possible. To that end personally I'd be inclined to include Greek and Roman elements -- both provide quite unique and fun tactical systems of combat that would juxtapose very well with the more medieval-themed units of most Hyborian armies. Where else but in this mod would a Total War fan ever get to pit a Roman cohort against English longbowmen, or a Successor phalanx vs. French knights?

I think you've demonstrated an uncanny ability to keep with the spirit of Howard's world while also emphasizing elements that you intuitively understand will just plain be fun (say, bands of marauding Snow Apes :beam: ) -- clearly you have an excellent instinct for game design, so I would suggest you give your gut feelings as much weight as you do these Howardian scholars...

As for the plans you have for Corinthia, and the various cultural influences, all your ideas make sense to me. And these cultural identities might spill a bit over national borders -- so perhaps some of that 'Thracian' influence extends up into Brythunia, etc?

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Originally Posted by cherryfunk

That's an interesting fact I wasn't aware of -- I guess that explains why REH never set any stories in ancient Greece!

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I think it's the Celt in him - he also admitted that his hatred of Roman was entirely illogical and silly, and a source of lively discussion with Romanophile Lovecraft.

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Though I would suggest that, as important it is to keep to the spirit of Howard's world, it's also important to create a fun game-playing experience, and Total War fans love Greek and Roman units -- so I would suggest balancing what the scholars say with what would result in the most fun possible. To that end personally I'd be inclined to include Greek and Roman elements -- both provide quite unique and fun tactical systems of combat that would juxtapose very well with the more medieval-themed units of most Hyborian armies. Where else but in this mod would a Total War fan ever get to pit a Roman cohort against English longbowmen, or a Successor phalanx vs. French knights?

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That's exactly why I'm including Greek & Roman stuff - even though Howard hated Rome, he still had a lot of Roman/Latin elements in Aquilonia and Nemedia, and he includes other cultures he had a dim view of: Turan (Ottomans), Zamora (Mexicans) and the like.

What I meant by not going too heavy on the Greek/Roman stuff was I wasn't going to go as far as the comics, who show virtually all the Hyborian Kingdoms as Classical civilizations, which is simply not true as per the stories. So while Aquilonia, Nemedia, Koth, Zingara, Border Kingdom and Hyperborea will be strongly medieval, the older Hyborian kingdoms will have more ancient things. I've decided to cut the legions out for all the nations, and made them exclusive to Ophir and Koth, since they're the "Roman" factions.

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As for the plans you have for Corinthia, and the various cultural influences, all your ideas make sense to me. And these cultural identities might spill a bit over national borders -- so perhaps some of that 'Thracian' influence extends up into Brythunia, etc?

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Exactly. What Corinthia is to Greece, Brythunia is to the East Europeans: Central Brythunia = Medieval Poland, South Brythunia = Dacians, East Brythunia = Eastern Celts (Galatians, Boii etc), West Brythunia = Gauls, North Brythunia = Baltic cultures. Originally the names were predominantely Welsh (such as in the faction preview), but that'll be changed to Gallic: the Gallic tongue works better with the only Brythunian names we have (Aratus and Natala).