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I've got a question, and as the subject suggests, it's about the yari.
Why don't they have a deep formation bonus? I've tweaked the unit_prod file (see Ashigaru Mod thread) to give Yari Ashigaru a rank bonus of 2, and Yari Samurai a rank bonus of 3 (better training and motivation).
Was this neglected for a better reason than "it wasn't like that in S:TW"?
Hello Irinami,
No, I think that was the reason.
You may consider to give YA a rank bonus and none to the YSAM. YA were trained to fight in squads, samurai went more for personal glory.
You could even cut some of YA normal melee and move that to the rank bonus.
I can't really get behind that level of granularity. I'm sure that Sengoku-jidai battles weren't just a tactical clusterf****, but I don't personally know how "units" were organized tactically. So the most I can get behind is, "They have spear, they get rank bonus." Now strategically... ... well, that's what the Ashigaru mod is for. n.n
Hello Irinami,
That's good, there are different ways to do things.
As our aim was to make it close to original STW we did not include rank bonuses.
Also if we had added it, it would make spears stronger and would have an impact on the rather delicate rock-scissor-paper system:
ND only has one higher combat point over YS and, with the high charge, that is the reason why they can defeat YS. If YS had been given say 2 rankbonuses it would have meant +1/+2 attack/defense and effectively the YS would have two points more than the ND.
That would put the result to be about 50/50 (although high losses for the YS would mean it might lose part of the rankbonus) and then the ND's higher cost could no longer be justified.
Its only real advantage would be its higher run speed for flanking attack while still keeping the disadvantage against cavalry and archers.
Units like NI and WM would still win but at a higher cost which would have to be adjusted in their unitcosts or stats.
CBR
Interesting, and I understand and respect the position. Just can't get into R-P-S systems, coming from WWII wargames where some sides just DO get creamed because they really did suck. It does bring up good considerations; I'm finding that, like may others who just said "I'll just make a tiny change here..." I'm probably going to be learning quite a bit more than I'd bargained for.
Well there no doubt that the R-P-S system in Total War and especially in this mod is more pronounced that it ever was in real life. We have a lot more control of the individual units and each unit only has one weapon type.
As you say some sides will get creamed and that will also happen in any Total War game or mod if the difference in quantity and quality is too great. And no R-P-S system will change that.
But to use WW2 as an example, I dont know what WW2 games you play though. That requires a lot of combined arms to defeat a well dug in opponent:
Antitank guns are very difficult to spot and can quickly ruin your day if you send in unsupported tanks. Using plain infantry squads to support them is nice but not the whole answer if you suddenly face obstacles like minefields and barbed wire, so some engineers will be nice too. But such soft units will still have problems if the enemy is supported by heavy machine guns so what to do? Then its time for snipers or mortar teams to knock them out and mortars are actually quite nice against the first problem which was the antitank guns. Stuff like that is what you see in the Combat Mission series.
Different weapons with different strengths and weaknesses but Im sure you already are aware of all that.
Now of course SP will be different than MP(I only play MP). But we have done our best to create a very interesting MP experience because the players are forced to think about what units to send in where and how to trick/outmanuver your opponent for the best matchups.
And its a close recreation of the original STW game using the IMO much improved MTW/VI engine.
Is it a realistic simulation of Japanese warfare from that era? No not really. But its some of the best MP I have played in my 5 years as a Total War player.
CBR
Interesting discussion.
I've read a lot of doubts and condemnation from people that insist on historical accuracy in the TW scene about the RPS (this is to make a point - i am not suggesting that the OP is doing so).
The name (RPS) given however is sort of misleading because in such a gameplay things are endlessly more complicated than what the name suggests.
The result of the RPS, which is what actually matters, is that an army's units need to fight as to cover each other in various tasks as they respond in the enemy movements in defense or they move to make an attack.
That is quite complicated to achieve practically. After playing a few tens of mp battles and watching a certain amount of SWs mp replays it aspires awe to see well coordinated armies be it on the offensive or the defensive.
Through good judgement and sense of time and space good players adjust their positions on a grand (strategic) level and during action (micromanagement) as to set up good match ups and charge the flanks of the enemy while protecting theirs. It takes effort, skill, some thought and a few hundreds (if not thousands) of games to reach that level i feel.
Real battles weren't identical to this - but from what i read about the Sengoku Jidai they were possibly failry close; from a mp gameplay perspective (and SP too because the battle AI excels in army control and in getting good match ups) they bring out the best of the game and players, i feel, even with my limited mp experience.
Noir
I am indeed doing so (insisting, or at least trying to enhance) historical accuracy. I'm not a gamer, I'm a WARgamer. Quite the difference. Also not interested in MP very much--it's a neat little side-diversion, to me. I know, that's an extreme-minority viewpoint.
I understand what you're saying, CBR, but you take an early-war 37mm popgun, you're not going to do much more than annoy a late-war tank. Yes, there IS a good amount of RPS in warfare. But in the Steel Panthers community, there's also what we call "Arcade" quality: RPS for its own sake. I'm not interested in that.
On the other hand, you wouldn't develop and deploy nodachi or naginata unless there were an advantage to be had. The amount of this advantage, and at what cost it should come, is indeed an important consideration. I welcome any input, including mods of the vanilla unit_prod.txt as long as it comes with explanation or whys and wherefores. I mean, that's half the fun of modding. :D
Otherwise, I'll just mod my own and make posts on it for anyone casually interested.
The SP battle AI is designed for a rock, paper, scissors combat system, so you'll get the most challenging battles from the AI when the RPS is intact. The RPS system is actually more complicated than it appears because here are 3 RPS systems operating simultaneously across the unit set.
Oh yes I understand that. There is of course not the same degree of technological development in this mod, compared to what we saw in the nearly 6 years WW2 lasted. But we can use YA as an example. Sure they are a spear unit and therefore have an anti cav bonus, but I still wouldnt want to use YA as my only infantry unit versus HC. Their low combat power and morale simply makes them too weak for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irinami
So in simplistic terms I would say its very similar: A low end antitank gun will not be very good versus a high end tank although it is a counter weapon to tanks. A low end Yari unit wil not be very good versus a high end cavalry unit although Yari is the infantry counter weapon to cavalry.
And you are welcome to ask any questions regarding history, gameplay or modding.Quote:
I welcome any input, including mods of the vanilla unit_prod.txt as long as it comes with explanation or whys and wherefores. I mean, that's half the fun of modding. :D
CBR