I was just curious about the background of this unit. I like it very much but the iphilkratic equipment seems a bit weird. I think they should fight in classical or successor style. But i do not know much about I.-G. warfare.:help:
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I was just curious about the background of this unit. I like it very much but the iphilkratic equipment seems a bit weird. I think they should fight in classical or successor style. But i do not know much about I.-G. warfare.:help:
Iphikrates is successor style... So I don't see what you're getting at? :inquisitive:
I think he meant macedonian-style pike warfare...which would mean, I suppose, more training required by recruits. The "classical" type would almost make more sense to me, but I'm no historian.
They're supposed to be a more mobile version of the hoplite. The problem here and with Iphikratous hoplitai is that they're stuck in a ponderous pike phalanx for right now. That'll change.
I have never heard of Iphilcratic hoplites in armies of Ptolemaios, Seleucos, Antigonos, etc. Btw Iphilcrates lived before successor wars, so it is NOT a successor style.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
How???Quote:
Originally Posted by paullus
Iphikrates was the one who came up with the idea of equiping hoplites with longer spears and lighter peltat type shields. Oh, and he also issued them boots.
In Greece it wasn't all that popular and the Spartans rejected the idea completely (I think that is why u can't train them in Sparta). However, Phillip of Macedonia took the idea and expanded it.
They are not an iphicratic phallanx. They are classic overhand armed phallanx that is equipped a bit differently (evolved boetian helmet rather than illyrian or other).Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Perun
Now, on the helmet part. I have looked at thousands of IG coins and on about 99.9 of those, a helmet like the one you see on IG hoplite in my sig exists (a great many variations of the same theme do exist -however all those helmets are beotians....)
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotvie...ID=227&Lot=660
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...image00235.jpg
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...s/01608q00.jpg
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...s/00513q00.jpg
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...s/00443q00.jpg
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...s/00787q00.jpg
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...nander1e-1.jpg
Just to show some variations. Those guys depicted were kings, true, but a boetian helmet isn't that hard to make (provided you have the bronze for it) and our guys are nobles so they probably could afford the lump of bronze and a smith to make a helmet out of that.
Now, on to pictorial evidence...
From Gandhara, the real frieze (this is a reconstruction) of Relief showing a male Buddhist devotee in chiton and himation (top), and Hellenistic soldiers wearing the chlamys (bottom). Butkara, National Museum of Oriental Art.
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...raRelief-1.jpg
and for a bigger pic...(if so desired)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...karaRelief.jpg
Check the shield. It is a big round aspis shield exactly like our hoplite has ingame, shown in profile in what is saved of the frieze.
There have been frieze depictions of them (as the above from Gandhara) that show them basically as you see them ingame (although they are standing guard in the Gandharan depictions). Also, some hero stones (Dead ksatriya or warrior guild's gravemarks depicting life and glorious death) from mid/Southern Indian coast portray Spearmen carrying big round aspis shields (like the ones we speak of) and attack each other in overhand stance.
Now, the most exciting part of this carved depiction is that there are two lines of spearmen facing each other. This is the depiction of a classic hoplite phallanx, which Phillip vowed to change because of that very fact...That basically two lines in the classic phallanx fought whereas the others pushed them on. (So he made the pike phallanx you all know and love, in which 5 lines fought-later even more)
And I guess you guys don't believe me... Ok.
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...arnataka-1.gif
Feel free to download this and check the last 2 lines. Those guys weren't IG, but IG influenced Indians, or "Indian hoplites-style inf" if you will.
I took the liberty of doing it myself...
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/...sttwolines.jpg
Does their way of fighting ring a bell? :2thumbsup:
I understand that any spearman would fight somewhat like this but 2 things are at work here. 1. is the size and make of the shield (Pre IG Indian shields would be more of a bell like construct, or if round much smaler in size), 2. The clear phallanx formation of soldiers coveing each other holding spear in overhand position on TWO lines as depicted in the frieze. Not just one spear-and-shield line.
Now back to native Indian warfare... prior to IndoGreeks arriving on scene.
Indian warfare was mounted mostly. Infantry was either levy spearmen trying hard NOT to get stomped by elephants or great numbers of bamboo longbowmen showering arrows at their enemies. Adding to that was a very small cadre of fighting guilds (according to Kautiliyas' Arthashastra) whose warriors were very proffesional in the conduct of war, and who were on "assault" roles, equipped with the best swords that could be made (Indian sword making at that time was the best in the world, some of their Iron construction still survives). Kautiliya writes that only they were good enough to be trusted as much as the King's own household (I guess bodyguard mounted and dismounted) troops.
The mounted warriors were all Ksatriyas (warrior caste). A small percentage of those still fought on charriots.
I think IG noble hoplites fit a role as they were quite possibly the only part of the infantry (along with those professional guilds) that actually fought. Those guilds were basically swordmen, so what you see in that pic above is either them, or Indians who fought like them. Indians fighting like them would indicate their existence and even more their influence on how people fought in the subcontinent at that time.
A classic phallanx in India would make sense, as pike phallanx would be immovable and elephant/arrow bait. Not to mention that all the other lighter troops (Indohellenikoi peltastai etc) would have to be protected by the light-variety and the more heavy ksatriya horsemen. A classic phallanx could both reform and avoid elephants and go up against cavalry and native Indian infantry, while at the same time be very protected against the massive volleys of Indian longbowmen. They wouldn't be speed runners true, but they quite possibly could outrun the pike phallanx who had to carry that 6meter pike along with them.
For those reaching down here, and have read the whole thing, I realise that there is a lot of stuff here. But a man has to stand up for his sig, especially one that is so craftfully made by Caratacos himself!
Wow, Keravnos, those pics are perfect. Thanks for help!
I believe he meant in game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Perun
I'll clarify: the idea of going for the lighter type equipment (Thuros, lineothorax, etc.) + longer spears makes for Successor style in my mind. Granted it's an anochronism; Iphikrates who is credited with this new style, was around way before the Successors were - but the overall unit remindes one of the Pezhetairoi mixed with a bit of Thureophoroi.
I can not agree. Successor warfare is complex, it is not just "longer spears, lighter armor".It was created by Philip II, who combined ideas of Iphilcrates, Epaminondas and his own. Iphilcratic reform was only an inspiration, it never became real part of Successor style.
Yes and no.
Yes, you are right: there's more to Successor style than the things I mentioned. I concur.
No, the idea behind the reforms got thoroughly implemented by the Arche Seleukeia. When I think of Successor Syle; or the Ptolemaioi for that matter (the Royal Guard of the Ptolemies is pretty much a heavier edition of the Iphikratid hoplite).
If I think of anything as Successor style, which is a highly fluid description in the best of cases, it's a more standardised professional army as opposed to traditional hoplite warfare with citizens generally supplying their own equipment.
That's what I think of too. When you think of classical hoplites, farmers and artisans come to mind. Successor style has more to do with standing armies run by the state than anything else. It isn't like the Successors invented it. It was Phillip of Makedon of I'm not mistaken. Call it Philopian.:dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
EDIT: Heh, Philopian.
Thanks keravnos, I've learned a lot :2thumbsup:
nice... Philopian made me think of something else, but we won't get into thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Bootsiuv
to avoid such allusions people may later go with Phillipic style... hahaha
keravnos............... U DA MAN!!:2thumbsup:
Thank You, and KuKulza. Truth be told, I am just amazed by those long forgotten fellow greeks. Just think that they reached what is now Patna, then called (Pataliputra/Palibothra)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSpartan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pataliputra
and Sri Lanka where they helped build one of its longest standing Stuppahs, and were also mentioned as tradesmen and merc. swordsmen in the Cilappatikaram Tamil epic poem. They are also mentioned in sri lankan chronicle (arrox. 2nd cent. CE) Culavamsa.
The biggest reason why I am amazed by those "pesky" IndoGreeks is simple. Calculate the distance between Patna and Athens and you will understand. :laugh4: Imagine doing that on foot and on horseback, using the same dirt roads they did, (if such roads did actually exist back then, which is doubtful).
Indians however, perceive them as intruders, lured to their land for its riches and spoils. (According to a study I have read-and it is debatable whether it is so-, it was estimated that India produced 33% of World's GDP at the time).
-I guess the problem is that Indians view them (and I can't blame them for that) as Western Barbarians who destroyed the remaints of Mauryan power (at least in Western and Central India) and plunged India in looting and chaos. One of the most valuable sources is the Mahabharata that describes the fall of Mathura by a joint Yavana/Kamboja army. Kambojas as well as Bahlikas were the IndoIranians who were Baktria/IndoGreeks' most trusted subjects, and as a reward for their help in the conquest of India (that part they conquered at least) were given lands and fiefs to rule, and a big part of their people imigrated to India.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../EpicIndia.jpg
Notice that both Bahlikas and Kambojas are present in two different colours yellow and orange. (it is there in Hindus tributaries) I theorize that orange was their original homeland, while yellow was where they settled in India.
Of course, theorizing is something that happens a lot. Please, bear in mind that while evidence has been followed to the utmost, the mere fact that there is LITTLE to NONE direct Archaeological evidence so far as weapons and arms are concerned, means that I may very well be WRONG in some of my assumptions.
As you can see from my sig, no actual IG city was dug. All we know of them, are "leftovers" from digs who focus on either Saka or Kushan. No particular dig is targeted towards them, meaning focus on the IG layer instead of Saka or Kushan or later ones.
I can only hope that this will change. In fact this is one of the reasons I joined EB. To increase awareness of a long lost and wonderful people like the IndoGreeks were. :yes:
Well, Ptolemies used this kind of Royal Guard just because they had not any Hypaspistai. Iphilcratid hoplite was not a firm part of Successor tactics, it was rather a rarity like Seleucid Kilikians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
Seleukid Kilikians?
Anyway, there's been a misunderstanding in this thread. Someone said that Iphikratid style hoplitai were a Successor type of unit. That's true to some extent, but it would have been more accurate to describe it as a common Hellenistic type. That might have avoided the disagreement entirely.
We feel an Iphikratid style unit is appropriate for the Indus valley because Iphikratid hoplitai are supposed to allow for a more fluid style of hoplite combat, more suitable for chasing down most of the troops in that region than conventional hoplitai.
Thank u Paulus.