Not to mention that HoreTore's quote is an equally hamstrung Eurocentric view as the American perspective it taunts. If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?
Printable View
Not to mention that HoreTore's quote is an equally hamstrung Eurocentric view as the American perspective it taunts. If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?
Moderates. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Not to mention that "liberal" by definition can't be moderate. Liberalism is about change, conservatism is about preserving the status quo. Neither side of the pond really uses the terms as they should, strictly speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
My theory for the difference is that the US was founded on a limited government, therefore to us, conservatism is trying to maintain that. I think that Europe doesn't have the same foundations in that regard, so the term takes on different meaning.
*I haven't really put much thought into this, mind you. :beam:
Actually, by definition "liberalism" is not necessarily about "change" - if you look at the meaning of the word it is about "freedom". So actually, by definition, it is not necessarily the opposite of conservatism (e.g., by definition it should be "liberal" to be against strong gun control).Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
This is in line with how (at least AFAIK - I am sure about the German use of the term) "liberal" is used here in Europe (and more in line with what is called "libertarian" in the US).
It's the usual problem of attempting to fit politics onto a straight line, bookending it with arbitrary terms such as "right" and "left".
I put them on a special list of people deserving a good torching :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Seriously though, nazi/fascist parties are, of course, way more extreme right than the republicans are. Extreme-extreme-extreme right might be fitting.
As Ser_Clegane points out, liberalism is about freedom, not change. However, there are two forms of liberalism:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
- Economic liberalism, ie. free-market, minimal state, low taxes etc.
- Social liberalism, ie. personal freedom, what you do is your own business and should not restricted, or in other words, pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, etc(as Ser_Clegane pointed out, pro-guns is a liberal stance)
Now, the parties who have BOTH of these forms in their policy, belong in the centre. They have are both left(social) and right(economic), and +1 - -1 = 0.
However, other parties usually stick with one of those forms while banning the other, or, more commonly, put major restrictions and only allow it in certain areas. Those with an emphasis on economic and not social usually belong on the right. The opposite belongs on the left. Note that here in europe, he usual stance for most conservatives(like the democrats) is slightly off centre , in that they have a lot of economic liberalism, but they also have quite a bit of social liberalism too.
Myself, for example, belongs on the left. I'm big on social liberalism, but I want great restrictions on economic liberalism. Don_Corleone(well, from what I've seen of his posts), on the other hand, is a fan of economic liberalism, while being a conservative on the social issues, thus placing him on the right.
I'd say I'm much more a fan of economic liberalism than social conservatism (in fact, on some matters, I'm rather socially liberal as well). The problem stems from the fact that politics really occupies a two variable space, but we all try to define it in one dimension (left and right). If they serve no other purpose, those endless Libertarian 'political position' charts should be regarded for getting people to start thinking like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I do find it interesting that in condensing from two dimensions to one, economics wins over social issues. People that are economically liberal and socially liberal consider themselves (and everybody else considers them) rightys. People that are economically conservative and socially conservative consider themselves (and every body else considers) lefty.
There's a good difference between the European view and our's, our Libertarian party, who represents economic and social liberlism is considered rather far right, rather than centric.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Even that is up for debate though, so here it isn't that cut and dry either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_rightQuote:
Originally Posted by Wiki article 'Far right'
Like Geoffrey pointed out, it's better to view political spectrums as circular, rather than a left-right line. Stalin and Hitler's governments had alot more in common with each other than our Republicans and Democrats here, even tho the the former are considered 'extreme left' and 'extreme right.'
Yes, that's the problem with left/right view, it's meant to cover only economic issues. Social stuff isn't really covered by it, so when defining parties, their economic policies are always counted first. We really need 2 scales to take that into account, one left/right for economics, and one liberal/conservative(or whatever) for social issues. I like this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Interesting but there were some pretty loaded questions there, HoreTore.Quote:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 5.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
:juggle2:
I wasn't referring to the test, I was referring to their scale ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Btw:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -9.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.23
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/...est/index.html
craig's police interview
Economic: 8.25
Social: -1.23
(I'm right next to Milton Friedman! :-) )
So for all the talk about how I'm socially conservative, actually, the guys on the right that say I lean left on social issues are correct.
Well, I agree with that, seeing as I agree with you a surprising number of times...Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
My turn! My turn! :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
That seems pretty close. My social conservatism definitely takes the backseat to my economic conservatism.Quote:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.87
I agree that blanket conservative/liberal labels are a bit simplistic as there are clear social and economic components to each.
Economic Left/Right: 3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64
As for using HoreTore's pithy quip for a siggie, as Cartman says, "I do what I want!"
[bandwagon]
Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.21
[/bandwagon]
Although personally I would categorize myself slightly less leftist and more authoritarian.
Ummm as for the topic... While I can somewhat understand how he is trying to avoid his homosexual affections by displaying himself as a staunch opponent to it, I do think that Craig would be wise to resign at this point (for the good of his party, and also to possibly get out of public spotlight), as with the contradictions in his attitude in relation to his actions diminishes the credibility he may have had.
Economic Left/Right: -3.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.44
I guess being in the Gandhi neighborhood isn´t too shabby :laugh4:
I had to check that in Wiktionary to determine if it was a compliment or an insult... Darn you native english speakers! :whip:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
I'm feeling rather alone in the bottom left corner though... Nobody wants to join me? :embarassed:
Economic Left/Right: 1.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.31
Can someone explain to me what this means? Please be kind in your descriptions.
Well, according to their website, I'm more a Libertarian than you are, for one. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Honestly, the big difference is most likely that you don't trust big corporations any more than you trust big government and that's skewing your results on the economic scale.
Remember, I'm in more Ayn Rand, Milton Freedman territory. You're probably where most people who fit the more generally accepted view of Libertarians reside.
You're a trouble-making moderate who insists on stymying any progress in any of the four directions the scales measure!Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
:whip:
Don is one of those agreeable people on the other political scale. There's a few of them running around here.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
My results are about the same as the usually are.
Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.26
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -0.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.31
I'm fairly moderate, like I figured. A little more left on freedoms though, but not much.
Woho! Another socialist leftie! *does the happy dance*Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
Figures, a woman is the one who is wise to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
:medievalcheers:
Odd as my evaluation of you has been a "reasonable conservative", my own grouping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Well this is true, but I do trust corporations more then government, at least with them its all about profit.Quote:
Honestly, the big difference is most likely that you don't trust big corporations any more than you trust big government and that's skewing your results on the economic scale.
As I spend more time here and evolve my outlooks given others opinions I find myself leaning more and more to the right, with a few notable exceptions.Quote:
Remember, I'm in more Ayn Rand, Milton Freedman territory. You're probably where most people who fit the more generally accepted view of Libertarians reside.
My mission is a failure then.... ~:mecry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Well I am hardly predictable HoreTore, I may be on a greenpeace boat next week ramming japanese fishing vessels while tucked away in my backpack are hamiltons & madisons federalist papers.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
However, it seems I have contributed to taking this thread off track, my appologies to those on topic.
Economic Left/Right: -6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.77
~:mecry:
Silly Yank site! If I were American, right now I'd turn myself in for being a subversive fifth columnist commie! :shame:
Whereas in fact I am a moderate centre-rightist!!1! I guess this test proves HoreTore's theorem. The rightwing Euros register as ultra-left on an American scale, and the leftist Americans as centrist.
Has any Euro here made it into the + on this scale yet? Where's Fragony?
I'm also dying to find out where Tribes or JAG would end up.