Revisiting VnVs

After reading an older post about princesses, I thought maybe another stroll down memory lane was in order. I liked the game's concept of virtues and vices. I like trying to get the virtues, and have learned reasonably well how to avoid the vices.

I am sure there are VnVs that cannot be gained in gameplay, for example Autocrat (at least I've never been able to do it). However there are a good number that can, such as Steward, or Scant Mercy.

The question posed is what VnVs do you farm/mine/endeavor to get for your kings and generals, and how?

Do any of you guys farm the less obvious traits? I dont know what the less obvious ones are because I've never accidentally gotten one in gameplay. The only reason I know some of the VnVs exist is because they sit in the VnV list. What oddball ones can be gained, if any?

If it makes any difference, I am wondering more about generals than kings because the general's VnVs hang around longer than the King's, (the king dies whereas the general doesn't unless you've turned that option on).

Well, I have a tendency to 'farm' the atheist trait amonst my enemies when playing as a catholic kingdom. Really helps with the flammability of enemy princes/kings/generals. A personal favorite of mine is to turn the Pope into an atheist by turning the inquisition on him repeatedly. There was even one game where I managed to burn the Pope at the stake for heresy, thanks to the uber 7 star grand inquisitor I'd been training up.:beam:

It's always funny to see an atheist pope. Even funnier to watch him burn. It stinks when it backfires and he gets True Believer or some such. Of course then it turns into, 'hmm, I know I left that 7*Assassin round here somewhere' :eyebrows: .

The only ones I really put any effort into are the combat related ones - skilled attacker/defender/against odds etc etc. What REALLY bugs me though, is training up a general (often the heir to the throne - I like to keep those guys active ~D), he finally gains a couple of stars, then suddenly develops "Pride", and loses them instantly:furious3: . Or else it's the chap you just made Duke of Trebizond.... God, I HATE pride, it is the most irritating vice of all... so Sensei, if you have any special suggestions to avoid pride, I'd love to hear them ~D At least with the 'drinker' line, you end up with "Dead drunk", when thanks to helpful assistants, all his faculties return, and the final trade off is -20 health. ~:cheers:

Virtue farming is a bit "gamey" for my taste. I think it's a bit naff that you can say build/destroy/rebuild basic farmland and end up with "Steward" etc - IMHO, he should get "timewaster", "bad planner" or something :laugh4: Obviously, if in the normal course of events a governor acquires a "steward" virtue, he may well be transferred to a richer province (I mean, haven't you noticed it's always the Amir of Sinai that gets that one first? :laugh4: )

Oh, and sometimes, given the chance I'll have a general kill off all his prisoners to get the "Butcher" vice, but I believe you need over a thousand prisoners for that to work, which can be heck of a lot of ransom money forsaken.

Likewise, with "Autocrat", I've only ever seen that on starting kings. I also don't think I've ever seen the Traderking line develop in-game either, but then I usually play XL rather than vanilla, and as trade is wound down a bit in that I pay less attention to it compared to other income streams.

What I've also found is that certain provinces seem to give certain vices - there have been numerous occasions where a general on garrison duty has earned something nasty (like inbred, etc), so I've swapped him out for another guy, only for the new guy to get exactly the same vice the first year he's there... I don't think it's the same provinces in each game either, so it could still be random, but at the time it looks like a pattern developing...

I don't really go out of my way to get certain traits for my generals/governors, but they often gain particular virtues simply because of how I play the game. Because I'm a turtler and I like to focus on internal development, a good number of my guys usually get the Builder and/or Steward traits. Also, since a good number of my governors are veterans of Crusades & Jihads, quite a few of them tend to have the Pious/Zealous traits as well.

As for the more military-oriented traits, I usually don't go for anything specific. I tend to roleplay my generals instead, depending on what traits they start out with. If a general starts with traits that increase his dread (such as Killer Instinct), then I'm more likely to play him out as a ruthless character who will execute most -- if not all -- of any prisoners captured in battle. ~D On the flip side, I usually make sure a general with traits such as Chivalrous or Honourable Warrior behaves accordingly (releasing prisoners and whatnot).

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

What REALLY bugs me though, is training up a general (often the heir to the throne - I like to keep those guys active ~D), he finally gains a couple of stars, then suddenly develops "Pride", and loses them instantly:furious3: . Or else it's the chap you just made Duke of Trebizond.... God, I HATE pride, it is the most irritating vice of all... so Sensei, if you have any special suggestions to avoid pride, I'd love to hear them ~D At least with the 'drinker' line, you end up with "Dead drunk", when thanks to helpful assistants, all his faculties return, and the final trade off is -20 health. ~:cheers:

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I can't recall getting Pride to much. Maybe I've just lucked out. So I guess I do have suggestions on how to avoid it, I just dont know what they are :dizzy2: .

I usually save Steward and the such for my first couple of Kings. I usually end up improving agriculture in the beginning so it isnt hard for the first King or 2 to get it. After that, meh, if they get it great, if not oh well.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Oh, and sometimes, given the chance I'll have a general kill off all his prisoners to get the "Butcher" vice, but I believe you need over a thousand prisoners for that to work, which can be heck of a lot of ransom money forsaken.

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It certainly is alot, but then again Butcher is one I'm drawn to, I like hearing the execution sound.

I believe Autocrat is only for starting and hero kings. I've never seen it proc during a game. I read somewhere here getting the TraderKing line started is easy enough, but you gotta build and destroy mines to do it. Why mines I have no idea, I've never tried it but plan on it next game. Course that lumps it into the Timewaster category like Steward, eh?

I cant help but like 'Odd number of toes'. Its just too funny.

Martok, I've seen that as well. My playing style has certain VnVs that crop up again and again. I was beginning to wonder if there were any else out there besides, Skilled Attacker/Defender, Pious, Zealot, the Accumen adding ones (are these mined or random?), Scant Mercy, and the infamous Butcher one. I'm sure Im leaving some out. I'm really gonna start a Push to see how many VnVs I can give a General. Although the last time I did that he didnt get any :furious3:

Edit: You think I could convey ideas better since English is my native language, but alas, tis not so it would seem. Errors corrected.

Some virtues are battle related, through not reliable. I´ve seem lords gain such traits after big bloodsheds, althrough not in an easily determined fashion. I suspect valor gains are related.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

God, I HATE pride, it is the most irritating vice of all... At least with the 'drinker' line, you end up with "Dead drunk", when thanks to helpful assistants, all his faculties return, and the final trade off is -20 health. ~:cheers:

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I guess I have been pretty lucky in my games, I mainly get pride-virtue to 'normal' (non-general) units and for them it's just good, because the valour bonus it gives is really useful for them. I just recently got a viking huscarl-unit get both pride and utterly fearless virtues, giving them a +6 valour.. :laugh4:
I couldn't agree more with the drunk-line of vices. One of my six-star generals lost most of his stars because of it, and now he is 'drinking himself to death', and I got his stars back but I don't think I'll use him on the battlefield again, he could trip on a rock and kill himself during a fight. Also, inbred-vice is absolutely irritating, I have lost many good generals to that.

I always wondered at how a general/king/prince managed to get the inbred line AFTER they were born....................suggestions?
As to "farming" VnV, I seem to attract the "charismatic" line of traits, along with the "glutton", "drinking" and "specialist" lines. Speaking of which, has anyone ever gotten the "sieger" line?

Once while playing as the Byzantines I got a general up to the expert siege defender virtue. He was trapped in a border castle that I couldn't get reinforcements to. He had to retreat to the castle and defend it from a storming attempt at least 5 times before I finally got more troops out there.

Aye, I've gotten seige defender line before as well. Under the same type of circumstances, too. Got caught off guard and had to defend against a number of seiges before help arrived.

Don't recall ever getting the seige attacker line, but in all honesty, I usually auto-calc those battles.

Yes, I'm still waking sleeping dogs ... and this one's about Pride, which I see Macsen hates - as do I. It's great in a commoner, but anathema amongst heirs and top generals. Nastily, Pride can develop into Lazy. (Thanks to Changarnier for pointing that out to me).

It was one of my most regular v&v's for princes until I changed my style - now I can go a whole campaign without it showing up once in an heir.

Obviously I could be wrong about the causes, and I could hedge this post with countless qualifiers - but this is what works for me. If anyone knows different, and I've simply been torturing myself by reading tea leaves, and now embarrassing myself in public, please help me out of my misery.

Overall I think there are specific v&v's (e.g. Scant Mercy), and general ones based on several actions .. but that for another thread. I see Pride as a general one.

In my games Pride seems to have several triggers, which I've ordered in descending importance - and certainty. I'll comment on them afterwards.

1. Building on a province bordering an enemy - including the Rebels, if enemy
2. Allowing a building to continue it's build next to an enemy (Secret Pride)
3. Building upwards before the AI thinks it is necessary, e.g. in an Early game, going straight to a Castle
4. Training an elite unit when an ordinary one would do
5. Never giving titles to commoners
6. Refusing to accept the loss of a territory e.g. extending sacrifices to prevent the storming of the castle
7. The first unit out say, for a regional bonus, or retraining for a new upgrade. This is good.

#1. Building on an enemy border

For me, this is far and away the most common cause, and stopping this practically eliminated the occurrence of the v&v. It's now part of my personal "Iron Man" rules - though it is very difficult to stick to. (Yes, I do want to start building a metalsmith in Hungary as soon as I take it).

If you watch the AI, most factions, like the HRE and the Byzantines, NEVER build on enemy borders - NOT EVEN WATCHTOWERS. Yet, both factions are great builders of Border Forts.

(I say "most factions" because I'm sure I saw Spain build something once, when I first started paying attention to this).

This seems especially daft when the HRE takes Antioch with a crusade, and 50 turns later, about to go under, still hasn't put a single building there - not even those watch towers.

How often have you got that feeling that starting a building has been the trigger to your neighbour's invasion? (Of course the AI peeks - and in STW you could see what your neighbour was building with an agent of watch towers).

I will say that this seems more tolerant at the beginning - I might get away with Watch Towers next to an enemy in the first 20 turns, even Border Forts. As the game goes on it seems to get stricter and stricter.

(Once Albrecht de Bar, just promoted to 4 star with the title from Pomerania and my top general at the time got it early in the HRE game. I'd had a few Prides already. It was the only v&v that turn so I read the parchment - something about "He's been repeatedly told about this ... ". He lost 2 stars. Talk about Murderous Temper).

#2. Canceling a building that's now on a hostile border

Yes, that's right, the AI wants you to cancel that Citadel you saved up for, and is key to your plans.

I've got both Secret Pride, and Pride for this one, I think.

#3 Building upwards before necessary

Pride just seems to crop up when I do this.

#4. Over-teching your army

Yes, Pride seems to crop up when I do this, too

#5 Scorning commoners for titles

Yep, again it crops up in this situation - I've passed over that 5 Acumen peasant for a 3 Acumen RK.

6. Refusing to accept lost territories

O.k. yes, I'm proud and I'm stubborn. He's just not gonna have Normandy - I won't let him storm the castle. I don't have the resources nearby to defeat his besieging army so I sacrifice 6 Peasants in a row in order to buy time for this. (Funny how an enemy ship popped into my transport line at the same time as his attack)

Sometimes it seems to me the AI just wants you to give up on somewhere - at least for now. Everything points to it - but I won't accept it.

Pride seems to crop in this situation, too.

7. Pride in commoners - a good thing

It doesn't happen every time, but it's often enough for me to notice it as a trend. For example, I just finished the long build for a Master Bowyer in Bulgaria, and out pops a Proud Bulgarian Brigand. Mmmmm. I just finished the Master Armourer in Syria, and the second Camel Warrior I retrained is Proud.

This is the positive side of Pride.

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If I get it, and look, I can always find one of these things, and nearly always it's the building on enemy borders - usually I've overlooked it. Not paying attention to the enemy rebels sitting next door when I've swept the remaining hostile faction away I start building a Fort. Hell, it was 50 turns since I last took something off them ... surely their memories are not as long as the other factions?

Short of a CA developer turning up and saying "yes, that's right" there's no way to be 100%. So, of course, I could be wrong - but as I say - this works for me. Pride changed from my most frequent vice to a rare occurrence.

As I also said, I think this is a general v&v. (Did I mention Materialist?) I can see the developers, (Mike Simpson, now a CA director, is credited for them), sitting about saying: "Ok, and this is Pride, so when he does this he'll get a chance of it, and when he does that he'll get a chance of it ..." and so on. Sometimes I think they did this just to mess with my head. Heh.

I do have a take on the game, of which the v&v's are a big part. If I'm feeling brave I'll open a thread on it. Thanks for your tolerance, anyways.

(Do I sound humble?)

Heh.

Oh, does anyone know of a complete list of them?

Does anyone know how to get at the individual parchments?
Are they in a file? Come to that - how about the Alliance parchments?

I did have the Strategy Guide once, which had them, but I lent it and it never came back. Grrrrr. I've seen a list over at .com, but it isn't complete, and doesn't spell out the evolution of them (Hard Sums --> Numerate --> Master of Numbers etc.)

I'd be grateful.

Errr .. at the risk of spamming (sorry) ...

total war/loc/eng/changes

seems to have all the text for the v&v and alliance parchments I asked about.

i got autocrat once when i stripped a load of generals of thier titles to give to better acumen peoples and tried a few of my low loyalty generals for treason (killed 3 :)) so i think thats how you get autocrat

anyone care to test?

Heh Predaturd - I'm gonna try that out for Autocrat. I'm always interested in v&v's.

And, the parchments I was looking for (for v&v's and for alliances) are in 2 files:

total war/loc/eng/changes

total war/loc/eng/events

An interesting read. *grin*