Guard Mode

When using classical hoplites, its more effective to use guard mode.

Which other units are more effective in guard mode?

All phalanx-capable units. Use guard mode for fodder too - the melee penalty guard mode delivers won't matter because they're only fodder.

I'd have to disagree on the hoplites though. In guard mode, they hardly kill any of their opponents, face in odd directions (often not head on), and get pushed easier.

That's why I did this:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90473

i agree with TWC the hoplites SHOULD be better in hold position as the hoplite formations normally protected each other similar to the phalanx, but in game this is hard to translate so the hoplites are definitely not as good with hold position(ive lost a few battles online because of this misconception)

With Hoplites the best bet is to put them in formation with a narrow front, then choss the enemy unit you won't to put a hole in, and charge them.
Using Roman troops to back them up it is very effective.

Roman soldiers are WAAYY better in guard mode, and thats how they fought historically too.

large shield with stabbing sword were all part of the Romans style of fighting defensivly, and it worked too, in game and real life.

later, when the enemy is tired, turn off guard mode and the troops will finish it from there.

With the exception of a unit in phalanx formation, all units fight worse in guard mode. I've tested this many times with several different people in vanilla RTW and EB. The fact is that units fight better without guard mode.

^^:sweatdrop: I always use guard mode for my Roman soldiers....:wall:

@ TWFanatic

Can you show us/ tell us what you mean by testing it? My experience has been that hoplites fight better in guard mode. Now, this could be just my misconception, but a lot of people share it. In fact, if I recall correctly, the EB team recommends using "guard" for hoplites.

So, Its not that I am saying you are wrong, its just that I'd be shocked if what you say turns out to be the case.

Probably also depends on what they are supposed to do. Having a bunch of low-level spearmen in guard mode seems to let them survive longer, but maybe won't be able to deal as much damage as they otherwise could, but since their purpose is to hold the enemy in position while other units move to attack the enemy in the flanks and/or from behind, it is a fair exchange. However guard mode is not such a good idea for flanking units, since you want them to kill the enemy as quickly as they can, before they can turn around.

By testing, I mean I go online with a friend and we charge the same units at each other, one in guard mode and one not in guard mode. We did this over and over again. The unit not in guard mode always won, 100% of the time.

Don't get me wrong, there are instances when it is useful. In close combat melee, however, the units in guard mode stand there and get slaughtered while killing very few of the enemy. Rather than engaging the whole force at one time, they send a few men forward at a time while the rest stand in a pretty but useless formation.

This is why I gave hoplites the short_pike - they now fight in a pretty formation without guard mode. That means their ENTIRE force engages the enemy and pushes them back, like hoplites really did.

Surely part of guard mode is that they stand in place and hold a position, charging them while in guard mode is not a good idea.

I agree, charging units in guard mode often makes them behave bizzarely. Like holding formation while figthing when it's not practical at all.

Standing in place when the enemy charges your front while you are in guard mode works much better.

Let me give u fellas some guidelines I've come up with regarding "Guard Mode":

1-Hoplites last WAY longer in Guard Mode. HOWEVER, make sure that they face the right direction, and don't expect them to kill the enemy so fast. This is best use to HOLD a line, plug a hole in the phalanks, and brace for a cavalry charge.
--If ur flanking with ur hoplites, and if you want them to kill fast then DON'T put them in Guard Mode.
--Hoplites have a very high mass so they won't get pushed back.

2-Other Spear units behave the same way as hoplites when in guard mode (read above). HOWEVER, a lot of them do not have the high mass hoplites have so they may get pushed back.

3-Spear Levies are generaly more effective in Guard mode simply because they won't rout as fast. And have the same rules apply to them (read pt # 1)

4-Sword Units are a little trickier. In guard mode they will last longer BUT they will kill a lot less, so much so that u have to be more careful when u choose to have them in Guard mode or not. The thing is their weapons have a short reach so unless the enemy gets close they won't do jack.
--Another thing to watch out for, if ur facing Spear units in Guard vs Sword units in Guard, the spear tends to win that battle, even if it is an inferior spear unit.
Again if u want to hold a center or delay the enemy have them in Gaurd.

5-Cavarly is Gaurd mode is just plain stupid. Unless its ur general in guard mode since you don't want him to get killed.

6-Charging in Guard mode is not a good idea because you will only have 1 or 2 lines charge while the others stay behind and slowly move forward.

On one test we did alternate charges...one of us charges while the other stands still. Guard mode was still inferior. However, like I said before, it does have its uses. And like many have said already, if you want to hold a solid line that won't break formation and pursue an enemy if they pull back, then guard mode is what you're looking for. In general though, units fight worse in guard mode. Therefore its advantages are tactical, and it should not be used in a simple slugfest, but has a use in an open battlefield.

Historically, one of the most deadly weapons of the phalanx was its charge. Thus, I find it rather annoying if I can't charge with my hoplites. This is another reason I gave them the short_pike attribute.

Good list, NeoSpartan.

Guard Mode is crappy in this game compared to other RTS. It's only useful if you don't attack and let the enemy run at you. It's more like a hold mode or avoid combat mode from other RTS. It would be so much better if they attacked anything in their aggro zone but did not pursue. I usually advance my troops in guard mode but switch it of once combat begins since the enemy isn't using guard either and will envelop my units.

Sometimes I think guard mode gets my men killed because they don't turn around to fight when hit in the flanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Decimus Attius Arbiter

Sometimes I think guard mode gets my men killed because they don't turn around to fight when hit in the flanks.

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Which is why you want to keep an eye on units in guard mode, for some reason they sometimes end up facing the wrong way. So u have to manually set them to face the right way.

Helpful tips here.

I use guard mode to hold the line and to make use of the Good or Very Good Stamina on line inf. Its a way of preserving them in a toe-to-toe fight until the enemy gest tired. Then Guard mode off, smash them to pieces.

There's a horror in that moment when you men break ranks and swarm all over a wavering enemy, only exceeded by the stumbling retreat of exhausted inf being ridden down by vindictive light cavalry.

I noticed some of the problems mentioned above (eg the "frittered charge", the "hoplite square dance") and I hadn't realised it was all down to the guard mode. It's good to know more of the nuts and bolts: I'll be more selective in tailoring my unit set up in future.

The only time I've used guard for cavalry was for cataphracts in vanilla. I tried running them pretty much like a phalanx (trot up to the battle line and prod away), and it seemed to work, but it was sooo expensive. I doubt it would be a viable strategy in EB.

I have to say G/VG Stamina is my preffered characteristic. It lets your cav and light inf jog all over the map. It lets your footsloggers go the distance over 12 gruelling rounds, and be fit to face that second full stack of Romans that reinforced on your right flank.

If I don't have great stamina in my army, I'm looking to smash and break the enemy fairly quickly. High stamina inf on guard mode is a real "set-and-forget" battle line for when you want to concentrate on dinky little flank actions.

Is this the place to ask about the relative merits of "tight" and "loose" formations for cav pursuits?

TWFanatic, with regards to the short_pike attribute, if I read that correctly you gave it to classic hoplitai. I though the unit had to have the phalanx attribute to have long_pike or short_pike? I know it's true for long_pike (tried to give it to Gaizaharjoz without giving them phalanx once)... if it's true for short_pike, did you turn the classic phalanx into a Makedonian one, or did you give your hoplitai schiltrom to enable that option?

Cheers,
K

Missile units may be useful in guard mode, as you can then attack a specific unit and forget about them for a while without worrying that they'll start running after their target (into some other enemy) if it moves away.