Hey,
What Armies do you guys usallay pick when you play on Beta 5 online? Are you more of a cav based person, or more of a inf based person?
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Hey,
What Armies do you guys usallay pick when you play on Beta 5 online? Are you more of a cav based person, or more of a inf based person?
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,
Usually:
1. Hatamoto (1 cav).
2-5. Spears (4 inf).
6-10. Missiles (5 inf).
11-13. Shock, usually monks (3 inf).
14-16. YC/NC/JHC/LC (3 cav).
So 4 cav and 12 infantry. But there are variations ranging from 1-15 to 8-8. Purchasing a YC/LC army isn't a real option anymore.
I'm originally more an infantry person: we played at only 5k in STW classic, cavalry felt more like mounted infantry and price/performance disappointed me (especially the JHC). I recall I usually had only one YC.
Cavalry is stronger now, thanks to charge. It's important to have good anti-cavalry units (spears and to some extent guns).
In STW cavalry felt indeed like mounted infantry - extra speed felt indeed as the only difference. HC was particularly dissapointing as it would lose by WMs (my experience is in SP only).
The charge in SWs is quite effective even against stationary spears frontally, i feel. Someone might correct me if i am wrong - but it feels as if it's not "negated" by spears more than other units - and that only when at hold formation.
At engage at will, i saw YS routing on impact by melee cavalry charges, several times - it might have been though under the particular circumstances, i guess.
What i mean to say is that receiving charges even with anti-cavalry infantry seems very important - usually its actually better to slow down the cavalry with other cavalry allowing for the spears to join in. Spears charging stationary cavalry are always effective even if low end, it seems to me.
Noir
Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
I try to get at least 4-5 cav. 1 Hatamoto, then 2-3 Yari Cav, and mabye 1 HC also. Hey,those HC helped me alot.
I usally don't get monks, because I usally get No-Dachis and some other stuff, since I usally don't have money for any other stuff. But if I can, I would try to get 1 Warrior Monk, to try to help hold the line.
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,
It pays to get monks, they are a lot stronger than Nods. Maybe you can buy Port Teppo instead of Japs, a YA instead of a YS and get some money to replace a Nod with a monk?
HC are really good.
In MTW horses refused to charge frontally, I think, that the 'Is Afraid of' parameter in the stats is responsible for this. It's not used in SamWars.
I could do that. Before, I usally had 2-3 Monks, One of them being my Gen. But I switch to have my gen as a Hatamoto, because me having a monk for a gen, it was always easy for you guys to kill my gen, plus a Hatamoto cost 400 koku, compare to 1000 koku for a monk, so I went to a Hatamoto for a Gen, and saved 600.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
I could do that Tosa, it would improve my army.
I do miss having 3 Warrior Monks in my Army, but I like having more cav and other inf so I can flank and such.
Hello {BHC}KingWarman888,
Yes, choices: one or the other?
The hatamoto is a very good choice for general: low cost, small unit and fast (very good manoeuvrability), tough, high morale and can skirmish out of danger.
I'm personaly aversive of buying an offensive unit for general: an offensive unit has to be thrown into battle and I don't want to worry about it because the general is in it. I may get a JHC or even NC as it's at least fast.
First, I like cav for speed, tactical flexibility, and pursuit. Shooter games bore me if the ranged phase goes on for too long. This affects my choice when considering where I spend my money.
I was averaging ~650 kills using HC gen, 2 YC, 2 NC, 4 ND, 3 YS, and 4 PT.
Over two weekends recently, I had three games with 1200+ kills, and averaged 825 kills per game over 14 games using Hata Gen, 3 YC, 3 WM, 4 YA, 4 PT and switching one YC or one WM to emphasize inf or cav. YC and WM are the biggest killers in the game, hands down. My win-loss record was 11-3.
Of course, this is because I was teaming with CBR all the time. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
yea, CBR always get high kills. Even in that 4v4 he lost this past sunday, he had one hell of a kill number. Highest I ever got was 810-850. I like Cav for flexibility, since I'm more of a cav person now.
Heh, I was being sarcastic (though you are correct; I think CBR is the most consistent killer in the group currently, with Yuuki a close second). My highest kill game was with Tomisama and AsanoRin against CBR, Tosa, and R'as. Tosa accidentally spent 3000 more than the rest of us and had a brutal army, and AsanoRin got tripled at the onset. That he held well with a nag inf core, and that Tomi in center responded well with relative quickness, enabled me to eventually swing around and behind to our enemies' relatively unprotected backsides.
I had 4 YC in that game, and I've found that getting behind the enemy with them after the enemies attack and taking out as many of their guns as possible to prevent difficulties in the end game, tends to contribute significantly to high kills. Chasing down routers is also important if you want to get your kill count up, hence the importance of cav (speed). With infantry-heavy armies this is harder and doesn't usually result in as many kills. I'm thinking this is why Tosa, who plays an excellent game, emphasizing infantry much of the time, doesn't have as high kills on the average as Yuuki or CBR. Yuuki's precision with positioning, unit matching during engagement, and timing, enable him to get high kills even when he usually takes an average number of cav (3 YC).
I have a bunch of armies that look good "on paper" but haven't been tried yet. Some are eccentric, and I'm loath to try them and let my teammates down because they didn't work as well as I'd hoped, for whatever reasons.
Hello,Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Just try. If 16 backwards deployed teppo do not work all that well, get something else next time.
Above isn't going to work at all of course and may be a bit of a timewaster. But if you think an army is going to work, buy the units.
The inexpensive hatamoto works best as the general's unit for me since I don't want to engage the general until later in the battle. The 6 lives and +2 morale that the general gets helps this unit to be useful. Keep in mind that teppo have power = 4 which means they take away 4 lives on a lethal hit, so it only takes 2 hits from teppo to kill the general. The hatamoto is less useful, and may not be cost effective, as a non-general's unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
I use a balanced army so that I have the flexibility to meet various tactical situations. However, I will vary the composition emphasizing either ranged units, melee infantry or cavalry depending upon the role I'll be playing in the battle. If no specific role has been established, I usually take:
5 to 6 ranged (teppo, archers or cav archers)
3 or 4 spear inf (usually YS)
3 or 4 sword inf (ND or WM)
2 or 3 melee cav (usually YC)
I don't usually use NI or HC, but they are none the less good units. One thing I've observed is players using YA as line units. The YA is really designed as a support unit to intercept cavalry, and is not really useful in melee against infantry. Since they are ashigaru units, they don't inflict a morale penalty on samurai units when they rout. However, you do loose any morale support they were providing such as flank cover and the outnumbered effect.
People are still getting used to YA. For quite some time they're hardly ever used and they become fashionable now. I think that after the skirmish phase people don't know what to do with them and tend to fire and forget about them. An idea might be to hold a specific enemy unit for a few seconds before some better unit can take over the fight or maybe circle to the back. I know that I've done that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Of course you're right that you loose their support once they rout. One has to be careful or they take your remaining teppos with them in their rout.
I'm frequently surprised how useful they can be and often buy two units.
I've played with this army several times in the past weeks:
- 1 Hatamoto Gen
- 4 Port. Teppo
- 2 YS
- 2 YA
- 3 YC
- 3 WM
- 1 HC
But I use other setups as well. I've switched to WM eventually after using ND because of the high number of WM units on the field. I'm a bit disappointed about ND atm because they're seldom useful. If your enemy has NI or WM there's hardly a point in attacking with ND.
Following Lord Yuuki’s format (above), if you are looking for explicit instruction on what to bring in your first game, let me suggest a Basic Samurai Warlords army.
Please note: We don’t use upgrades, as they are really not cost effective for this mod. And we always play at 9k per player, which provides the most finely tuned game that you will ever experience in the TW series.
OK, your first army!
1 Hatamoto General (very small unit of heavy cavalry with bows)
3 Yari Cavalry (medium cavalry)
4 Ashigaru Yari (light spears)
4 Warror Monks (unarmored but very effective sword infantry)
4 Portugese Teppos (light guns)
This is easy to remember, and just to get you started. The modifications that you can try from this basic format will include tradeoffs of investment from one unit type to another.
For example for flat terrain you may want stronger guns, so will have to maybe trade out one or two units of WM for a less expensive sword units.
If you are facing heavy forests, you may want to take less cavalry, opting for more and stronger infantry units.
And as already stated, the role you play as a team member may influence your unit selection also. When in doubt, stay balanced army (spear, sword, cavalry, range). But when with other teammates of experience, you might consider your deployment position as requiring a shift in personnel.
An examples being, on the flank you may want more cavalry, in the center, a stronger range and infantry, etcetera.
Please get the beta5 mod and 1-3 map pack, and come join us any Sunday afternoon. Just announce that you are there to play SamWars, and we will get you hooked up ASAP :wink:
Hello R'as al Ghul,Quote:
Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul
Yes, I understand. ND are also low cost (500) vs 800 for Ni and 1,000 for WM. I think it's a good unit to have. They are ok to fight spears, but it's also good to lead the first wave (this will hopefully minimise the casualties on the more expensive monks), the anvil NI is complemented by the hammer NOD, or they make a cheap reserve for the final blow.
You can stretch them out in 1, 2 or 3 lines during deployment and then put them in wedge. This will give a compact unit to manoeuvre around and slip thru. Then you can either keep them in wedge (+3 attack -3 def) for a decisive blow or disable wedge again to make a long net to catch routers.
The Nod is also one of the units that is costeffective to upgrade.
Not 100% sure about MTW, but spears cancel/minimise the frontal charge, also that of infantry. Flanking and backstabbing is always better, but that's especially true for the spear-nod matchup, as a lot of the Nod power is stored in this charge.
The Monks are raw power, but expensive CA magnets. The Ni is better to hold and wear out, but slow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
With that army, I would change a bit if I was using ,I would try to have a HC along with my YC, because I am always worried about getting flanked.
When I first started on the 2.0 server on VI in 2004, I always hated getting flanked, because I would flank sometimes, but not much (but then again we did 99k at that time for months, so that why I was never used to 9K and that)
I am always worried about getting enough Inf/Cav to hold the line and not getting flank, I usally end up screwing up, and even if my team does win, usally my whole army is gone since I pick the wrong units and wasn't thinkinh clearly with my tactis.
*(Sorry about this Sunday, it was going good for me, then I got drop :-( )
Yes, you suddenly left, pop-ups?Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
Yes. While developing SW, Krypta and I did some charge tests using STW v1.12, and we discovered that charge was broken. The charge bonus didn't account for any kills on any type of unit. This is why cav played like mounted infantry, and why HC couldn't beat WM. Charge was cancelled 100% by all unit types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
The charge bonus does work properly in MTW/VI v2.01. The charge bonus is cancelled by spears frontally, but there is a chance that individual spearmen will be pushed back by charging cavalrymen. If that happens, the cavalryman gets a +6 attack on the next combat cycle. Non-spear infantrymen are always pushed back by charging cavalrymen. Because spears do not cancel frontal charge by 100% in MTW/VI, we increased the anti-cav bonus of spear infantry over what it was in STW, and because the charge now does work against non-spear infantry we have a somewhat stronger RPS gameplay than existed in STW. In SW HC does beat WM, and this was the intended gameplay in STW as this early chartindicates. There is a mistake in the chart as the ND vs WM performance is reversed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
YS only have moderate morale. They have a high risk of routing if used alone against multiple units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
You can switch to hold formation to receive the charge, although, I don't find this to be necessary with full size 60 man units. One-on-one, a YS in engage-at-will will not be tripped into a rout even by a charging HC as long as it's facing the HC and not moving. If you weren't aware of it, there is a -2 moral penalty for a unit when moving if the formation is disrupted by the movement. Keep in mind that there is a 2 point positive hysteresis in the morale system. That means a +2 point morale effect has no effect until the total morale bonus impacting the unit is more than +2. So, if a unit looses -2 morale as a result of a disrupted formation, it does not get the +2 morale back when it gets back into good order. An additional morale bonus of at least +1 is need to trigger a morale increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
Surpising Tosa, I did not get any Pop ups. None what so ever. so I don't know what may have cause it. about the last 2-3 minutes it went laggy before I got drop, but other then that, it ran fine for me. don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
This is another mistake I make, answering a charge with a charge (I do this a lot), when I should probably stand fast and take the hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Am I assuming correctly?
P.S. Sorry about the suicide hill thing (Carpathian pass). That is the second time on that same map (I now remember a year ago or so) that I have made the same mistake, thinking if I just can take that center hill…
It’s an attractive nuisance for me.
Not sure about this Tomisama. I'ld say it's better to stand fast with spearunits. It will cancel the charge (you run risks when it loses formation).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
The Ni does not cancel the charge, but has a very high defense value. I'ld also put them on hold to get even more def and hope for the best.
But with say a Nod you want to countercharge as it will take a hit anyway, but also has a good punch itself.
Neither the spear nor the Ni has a good charge themselves, so why charge?
A bigger problem is when a small provocation is answered with an all out or deep charge. Fight your battle, not that of your opponent (which means in this case that you engage when you want to, not when your opponent wants it).
Great wisdom indeed, especially where I am concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
For instance, I am sure you know that I am easily trapped into a tit-for-tat cavalry battle on the flank.
And often when repeatedly attacked, will opt for a mass solution rather than being nitpicked to death.
But I too am very aware of these weaknesses, and will continue to try to find better answers to these situations as time goes on.
It may be a failing in some circumstances, but you can always count on me to be relentless in pursuit of perfecting my own generalship.
The only thing that I regret is that almost always my allies pay the price along with me for my misjudgments.
:shame: :shame: :shame:
Hello Tomisama,
It's something that's heard in several 'competitive' sports: you decide what happens, not him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
All of us 'fail', I'ld even guess it happens at least once every match. If not, would anything happen?
..yes.Quote:
For instance, I am sure you know that I am easily trapped into a tit-for-tat cavalry battle on the flank.
..yes, but.Quote:
And often when repeatedly attacked, will opt for a mass solution rather than being nitpicked to death.
I'm sure you will find answers.Quote:
But I too am very aware of these weaknesses, and will continue to try to find better answers to these situations as time goes on.
The most memorable battle for me the past years, was one where I was allied with you.Quote:
It may be a failing in some circumstances, but you can always count on me to be relentless in pursuit of perfecting my own generalship.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. Even if the game was important and serious. I'm sure there are situations and of course it's to be praised that you work on improving the art, as we all should do.Quote:
The only thing that I regret is that almost always my allies pay the price along with me for my misjudgments.
:shame: :shame: :shame:
It is a teamgame. Losing a teamgame doesn't just mean that one player underperformed (to put it bluntly), but also that his allies didn't utilise his (lack of) abilities well enough.
A team of a weak and a strong player is to be feared more than two strong opponents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
We all make mistakes Tomi. Sometimes your allies didn't utlize their abitlites to.
but then again, if you make a mistake, sometimes it can affect how your allies play, in my opinion, but not all the time.
All the Actions I do in game, I think has a affect on my allies. I think Tomi, if I do good, mabye my allies with to. Always keep a good mind set, Glass is Halg Full, and fight your enemy when you want, not when he wants.
That explains why YS fight better and longer in a line with high morale units and also why employing them statically to meet enemy units is often the best bet (by observation/inspection).Quote:
Originally posted by Puzz3D
You can switch to hold formation to receive the charge, although, I don't find this to be necessary with full size 60 man units. One-on-one, a YS in engage-at-will will not be tripped into a rout even by a charging HC as long as it's facing the HC and not moving. If you weren't aware of it, there is a -2 moral penalty for a unit when moving if the formation is disrupted by the movement. Keep in mind that there is a 2 point positive hysteresis in the morale system. That means a +2 point morale effect has no effect until the total morale bonus impacting the unit is more than +2. So, if a unit looses -2 morale as a result of a disrupted formation, it does not get the +2 morale back when it gets back into good order. An additional morale bonus of at least +1 is need to trigger a morale increase.
Thanks for clearing that - i had full spears routing especially in large team games just like that because i missed the ordered formation morale impact.
They fight longer in the presence of allied units because they may be getting a morale bonus from having their flanks covered, and they will have less outnumbered morale penalty as they would if operating alone. YS are not actually design to operate alone. Only the high morale units can sucessfully operate alone in the presence of many enemy units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noir
Morale 10 = WM, ND, BN
Morale 8 = Hatamoto, HC, NC, NI
Morale 6 = YC, CA, YS
Morale 4 = SA, YA
Morale 0 = JT, PT