Rant about the Kingdoms Native/Meso American campaign

I have overall liked the Kingdoms pack for Medieval II (The Native/Meso American in ). I however, I find there to be some annoying glitches in the Americas campaign. First and most importantly the Incas where not included in the game. I find that to be annoying quite annoying considering the fact that the Spanish were conquering Incan empire around the time, that they were conquering the Aztecs. My second problem is with the fact that, they are not allowed to build anything beyond cities. I would make more sense for them to be able to build beyond that level because they, had among the most populated areas in the New World. The third complaint I have is that, you aren't allowed to build temples that are dedicated to a pitcular deity. For instance the Aztecs should be able to build a temple to one of the three main gods they belive in. My forth complaint is that the Mesoamerican civs aren't allowed to build forts of any type unlike in the base version of M2TW, were the Aztecs can build forts. The fith reason is that, the whole entire map shouldn't be doimated by the Apachean tribes, there should be another faction (such as the Seminoles or the Choctaw) in the Northeastern eastern part of the map. I also think that the Apachean tribes should be able to build say, a large town and be more seidemenatry in nature. One last thing that bugs me is that none of the Meso or Native Americans are able to build ships or merchants. It just seems silly to me. (By the way sorry for the spelling errors.

I think your suggestions would make the Americas campaign just like any other campaign. Forts, merchants, huge cities, ships... The lack of those things makes the campaign different in my opinion. And I like because it's different. Then again, did the Apaches, who were nomadic people, have large cities with stone walls? The Apaches maybe dominate the northernmost part of the map but they still seem to be the smallest faction when it comes to population. If there was another faction up north the Apaches would be in a bad situation. To be honest there is another faction in the northeast; the Frechies who arrive pretty early.
What comes to ships the natives did not have ships. Canoes yes, but those weren't sea wessels. I don't think the natives built any kinds of forts either...

- Guru

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guru

I think your suggestions would make the Americas campaign just like any other campaign. Forts, merchants, huge cities, ships... The lack of those things makes the campaign different in my opinion.

---

I didn't say that the Meso/Native american cities where going to be the huge option. No, I said that the Mesoamerican cities should be able to upgrade to large cities and the native american ones to large towns. The Aztecs can already build forts in the base M2TW so I see no reason why it shouldn't be allowed in kingdoms American campaign. Ships should be allowed because the Natives there did in fact have boats used for trade and trasport. Merchants should be allowed to trade being very important for all areas around the world, making them not being able to build it silly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guru

Then again, did the Apaches, who were nomadic people, have large cities with stone walls?

---

Yes they were nomadic however the area they represented in the game was typically (at the time) not inhabited by nomadic people. That tended to be out in the great plains rather than, in the southwest. So yes they should be able to build up to the minor city size.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guru

The Apaches maybe dominate the northernmost part of the map but they still seem to be the smallest faction when it comes to population.

---

That wouldn't be the case with the allowance of larger setelments. They are also like a steam roller in they can build many units with little debut.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guru

If there was another faction up north the Apaches would be in a bad situation.

---

Once again they wouldn't come into contact with the Apaches for a while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guru

What comes to ships the natives did not have ships. Canoes yes, but those weren't sea vessels.

---

Depends who your talking about. The Sioux no, but the Caribs and costal southeasterners did in fact have them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guru

I don't think the natives built any kinds of forts either...

---

Look at first statement above.

Well, it would be interesting to see the Apaches have different sizes to their places. Perhaps something along the line of "Small camp - Medium camp - Large camp" would be an interesting proposal, and might also make getting some units like mounted thunder braves a little harder to acquire as well, if you needed a medium camp to be able to build the building for them. Sure, its a little more formulaic, but it would at least keep you from being able to build high powered units so fast on the front lines (like mounted thunder braves in approx. 3 turns from a newly captured settlement. Not sure on the numbers on this, since i haven't the time to test it)

In reply to #3

I still say the natives did not have ships. Boats yes, but you won't be carrying armies around with them. At least naval battles would be interesting: A native boat against a grande carrack...
Because the Aztecs could built forts in M2TW it doesn't mean they really did build forts.
In my humble opinion merchants were just a stubid feature in M2 in the first place. I don't miss them.
In Kingdoms the Apaches seemed to be the only faction that is really different. If they lived in cities (in game) they wouldn't be nomads. They wouldn't be different at all. In fact the Apache campaign is the only one I am interested in. The rest seem like vanilla Medieval 2 with a different coating. I think the Apaches' effective unit production only compensates for their small and relatively defenceless settlements. Instead I think they should be able to move their camps but you can't have everything. Sometimes anything.
Generally speaking of larger settlements (in the South), I think populations could/should be very large, but thick stone walls with towers (a la Medieval 2) don't really fit the picture. If I remember correctly some cities had more than 100 000 inhabitants...

In reply to #4

Early on, when you are be taking those rebel settlements you wouldn't have access to high level units anyway. Later you are likely to be conquering towns and cities which already have larger populations than any of your old settlements. In theory you could be recruiting high powered units in your recently captured frontier cities while you couldn't recruit them in your old, smaller settlements. In theory.

- Sleepy Guru

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guru

.......
In reply to #4

Early on, when you are be taking those rebel settlements you wouldn't have access to high level units anyway. Later you are likely to be conquering towns and cities which already have larger populations than any of your old settlements. In theory you could be recruiting high powered units in your recently captured frontier cities while you couldn't recruit them in your old, smaller settlements. In theory.

- Sleepy Guru

---

Good point. Mostly i based my idea off of what happened to the poor French when they came across me. I got guns/cav after a few fights with them (only took maybe 2 turns) and proceeded to send 3 units of mounted thunder braves from a few towns (like half a stack of mounted thunder braves a turn) over and over at their constantly appearing stacks of units, making it impossible for them to claim a town as their own, by wearing them down by shooting em up and retreating. I just find it odd that some of the towns i did it from were newly captured (like miccosuke {sp?}) and i only needed 2 turns to start churning a steady stream of em out from any of my towns (even the starting ones and back ones)

lol@ canoe vs. grande carrack

I can only rant about too big similarity in meso factions. Aztecs in age of empires 3 had a berserkers called skull knights and it would be great to have such unit here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by icek

I can only rant about too big similarity in meso factions.

---

I would have to agree with that statment but in my book it's not the biggest problem.