Norse Archers – A unit guide

Norse Archers – A unit discussion
I just can’t get over these units, so I thought I would channel some of my satisfaction into something, everybody else can (hopefully) use.
To say the least, I like the Norse Archer (NA). They’ve made my Danish campaign on M/H a walkover, by the fact that they act as both infantry and archer and I generally consider them they best unit in the game in terms of versatility and tech level.

(sorry, no interlinking, still new at this)
- Breakdown
- General Use
- Offence Siege
- Defence Siege
- The long run
- The bottomline

breakdown
They are a lvl2 range unit (castle), which means you can start pumping them out pretty early on.

7 ranged is no crossbow, which many factions get instead on lvl2 range, but it does beat or par most standard archers. They do however suffer from the lack of AP missiles, so they are best used on low armor, low/no shield troops (defence skill is ignored in missile attacks, so always aim for the unit with the highest exp).
And still with the flaming arrows for that devastating moral effect.

11 melee, that’s a standard (Norse-) swordsman right there. Most factions (including Denmark) don't get decent swordsmen before yet another castle upgrade, and in melee terms, they are a great fighters and a perfect supplement for your other Norse-foes AP/high attack infantry. Worth mentioning, that they can’t be upgraded at swordsmen’s guild as they are technically an archer unit.

16 defence (4 armor / 6 skill / 6 shield), that makes them the second best armoured missile unit, only surpassed by Ottoman Infantry and Scots Guard (who are both at 17 and far above in tech-lvl) and equal to they annoyingly strong Mongol Infantry (who by the way, besides from a much more efficient bow, has exactly the same stats). Also their 6 shield makes them gain an edge on the archer vs archer situations, also including crossbow unit with no range advantage, since the AP proficiency, does not include shields.

Their moral of 5 is fairly good, and equals most same-tech swordsmen and is better that most low/mid level archers. This finally, both completes and underlines their all-round usefulness.

And to top it all of they will only set you back 480 florins and additional 125 each turn. Compared to other lvl2 units, 480 is a steep price, but you most certainly get what you pay for in terms of swords, bows, armor/shield and man-training. Its upkeep cost is on the other hand extremely reasonable with on of the cheapest stat-point pr florin upkeep and a full 100 bucks less the DFKs)

General use
Ultimately the Norse Archers biggest advantage, are their early entry into your armies. They are neither great archers, nor are they great infantry, but they are available almost from the start and they are pretty decent units when compared to both infantry and archery alternatives individually from other nations on same tech level and that is quite a feat.

Versatility is the key concept here. They aren’t great at handling high defence unit and chivalry charges (thou decent defence make them hold lines quite well), but other then that they take on most tasks with devastating results. Another key point is they army that they are supporting. The Danish unit base has a lot of high attack, low defence infantry and the fact that the Norse Archer is the best defended unit in the Danish army until the arrival of swordstaffs, swordsmen and DFKs makes them a fairly wise choice for line holders, as your high powered AP infantry manoeuvre round for a flank attack.

Especially in sieges (both offence and defence) I think they have some neat feats:

Offence Siege- Give them some ladders and rush the walls. Their good shields and decent armor make them great ladder-holders as it will minimize casualties from tower/archer fire and if you send up 2-3 ladders with 2 units pr ladder, you'll have the walls in no time. On top of that, when the enemy routs, you can shoot arrows in their backs all the way to the town square (and even on some maps, hit the town square from the walls). In fact, unless the enemy has some tough cav's that you can't possibly hit while standing on the walls, you can quite easily complete a siege with nothing but these guys and ladders.

Defence Siege
Ohh what a gorgeous combo you have here. First you flame their face and ignite their equipment while parrying incoming arrows with your shield. Then you slash the walltakers to confetti with the sword and then light a fire in their B-hinds, when they turn tail and run.

This, combined with their low upkeep, makes them a great garrison units, where garrisons are a military necessity and not just a happiness factor.

The long run
They armor-upgrade at 1&2 and the fact that they work as both archers, offence and defence (and make short work if routing enemies trying to run through them) make them fairly quick to gain exp, toping them of at 14 melee and 21 (6/9/6) defence, possibly even before you are ready to upgrade to fortress (next castle level).

This makes them very tough melee unit and thou they might need a AP proficiency or a better range attack to really make it, in the end game offence, their low upkeep and wall defence capabilities, makes them ideal as castle and frontline city garrison even in the late era. They are of cause vulnerable to long range siege equipment (but then again, who isn’t) and if placed strategically, can still cause a good deal of panic and flaming casualties on an invading force, storming a hole in the wall.

The bottomline
Let me say this again, the Norse Archer is not a great unit in any one way, but it’s a fairly good unit in many ways, and that makes it a great unit overall. They are fast to gain exp, they are early upgradeable and they give almost anything that goes against them, a hard victory, if not a defeat.

And just to state the obvious. The Norse Archer, if mass produced from the start, will make the Danish campaign much easier as they will enable an extremely fast expand across northern/central Europe and/or the British Isle putting them in command right from the start. Denmark lacks they über strong late tech units, but an early expansion really makes up for it and, at least in my case, the Norse Archer was the key to succeeding.

Comments, discussions and criticism is most welcome.
Special thanks to brandybarrel for the FAUST which made the unit comparisons a cakewalk.

Excellent post. Glad to see another Norse archer fan ! definately a superb unit, that complements the infantry heavy Danes well. If I were not a HA general I would convert to the Danish OOB.

I agree, very usefull unit.

One tidbit to add, once you get Swordstaff men if you put a long, thin line of Norse Archers on a wall right in front of a line of swordstaves you will not lose that wall no matter what the enemy throws against it. Same for hill tops, for the most part, although it that case I like to walk the swordstaves forward in spearwall through the NA to prevent heavy losses against a charge. With Norse Archers available at low castles, Swordstaves from medium cities, and Norse War Clerics from Abbeys you can conquer the world. I made extensive use of NA throughout my Viking Migration AAR, they're an excellent second line or flanking unit and an average melee and archer unit at the same time.

:egypt:

THX Ramses, thats a nice tip.

Thou I don't agree that NAs are good flanking units. Their puny charge bonus of 2 and missing AP, makes them at better use elsewhere, IMHO.
They Danish unitbase is filled with hardhitting AP infantry, so why wast a good all-round unit on a specialist task?
I would much rather make them the first line of defence since they do have some of the best armor available for Danes and then use Viking Raiders, Huscarls or the hard hitting charge-manic axemen for flank and rear attack.

As i see it, the NAs are best used standing still, either firing arrows or engaging enemies and keeping them busy for a surprise attack from a Viking AXE.

I've had decent results using them as flankers. Just run them around to that back of the enemy, and let off volleys of fire arrows into the enemy. Combined with the high attack infantry mostly likely causing major casualties from the front, and you have a very quick rout.

Mmmm, I see what you're saying, but I wasn't thinking in terms of bringing them to the battle to be flankers, but rather using them as flankers once the melee is engaged. They're already there, their arrows are much reduced in effectiveness during the melee, and (Depending on your line infantry) you don't really want to disrupt your line formation by marching them through. If you march them around the edge, put one volley of fire arrows into the enemy and then wrap the flank they'll start a rout very effectively.

Having just finished a Danish campaign for my AAR the lack I noticed most was fast cavalry to chase routers, so in large battles a fair amount of my tactics were centered on encircling the enemy to prevent them from fleeing, which is probably why I started using NA's on the flanks.

Maybe their best use in a protracted melee, though, is the other one I mentioned; as a second line they have adequate morale and killing power to reinforce a wavering line and alter the course of battle, though if your swordstaves aren't horribly outnumbered they won't rout easily.

:egypt:

They reminded me a lot of the Trebizond and Armenian archers I'd always go crazy about in my MTW1 Byzantine campaigns.

Well. I still prefer to use axes or cav for flanks, so if they are not engaged (which they usually are) and I find that their current target yields little result, I usually just change target. There is always an enemy in a good positions for a face full of arrows :)

I think I prefer the NAs as frontline infantry in field combat (of cause, relative to the situation), they can thin out their numbers before they meet up with you and then the flankers smacks their backs with an axe (sounds almost poetic ~:wacko: ) and you won't get a better armored unit in the Danish army before swordsmen and DFKs.

Swordstaffs are OK, but it's 4lvl militia (took me ages to get there, had DFKs way before them - AFAIR - might have been a little greedy on the taxation) and they have weak defense and no shields, so without backup they are a short story, even thou they might take a lot down with them.

As for Danish cav, it right that they have some unorthodox cavs (axes and maces @ Huscarls and War Clerics) but I think they manage the routing collection just fine? I usually supplement with Frankish knights and Crusaders for the high powered charge, and in late eras your stuck with the basic FKs and Templars, but again I don't see it as a big problem.

Archers in general work pretty good on the flanks, or if your capable of performing it right, on a V angle.

i was thinking something like this:

------------Inf\---/Inf
------------Arc----Arc

the one of the left shoots at the right side engaged enemies (no obstructed LoS) while the on of the right does the same to the left side

note: your units are still forming a line, but because of where your shooting from, you don't have your troops right in front of the enemy troops, theres enough space for a non "high arc" shot

As far as routers, the #1 priority for me on collecting routers is the general, and the Danes don't have anything fast enough to catch 'em. Scouts are the same speed as Huscarls and War Clerics, and while I understand that (As a balance factor for the AP) it makes for some frustrating battles if you don't kill the general before the rout starts.

I think you'll be surprised by the performace of swordstaff militia. They're one of those units that holds up a lot better than their stats. Not that they score a lot of kills, but they'll hold the line until there's nothing left of them and give your cavalry, DFKs, or axemen ample time to find a flank and chew through it. I was very disappointed by Obudshaer though, they did more poorly than swordstaves in every position I tried with them. Against a charge I'd take swordstaves over obudshaer every time, against cavalry or infantry.

Another often overlooked unit is Norse Swordsmen. If you get to their final armor upgrade they become cheap tanks, able to absorb arrows like crazy and march forward against manned walls with surprisingly few losses. Their lack of stamina really kills them in field battles though, and with florins piling up in the treasury DFKs get trained instead, and rightly so.

:egypt:

WhiskeyGhost:
Thats a nice way of doing it. Good illustration and great addition to the debat :)

I do somthing similar, thou I use axes on the inside and then charge crisscross and then move the archers on the outside/backside, so as to kill/catch routers.

More tactical ideas and recomendations please, everyone :)

Ramses:
I have to admit, I don't have that much experience with swordstaffs, as my western army relays heavily on castle units (from Nottingham, Inverness and Angers) and my crusading army consist of little more then NAs, Axes and Crusade mercs.

The only place I have a consistent swordstaff production is in northern Italy and thou they get put to use quite often, against Milan and France, it is only as siege defence and siege breaks.

I'm not sure I understand the routing general problem? Which faction has cav's that can outrun a general?

I agree on the Obudshaer, but again with little experience. It actually also goes for axemen, who under some conditions doesn't have the charge/killing power that their specs promise (especially against cav's I found them frighteningly useless) but then again, in the next battle they will slaughter through 2-3 groups of DFKs (as flankers) with little casualties, so still think they are worth the bother.

I agree that the Norse Swordsmen are potentially a fine unit because of its price and the fact that they have 3lvls of armor upgrade, but they are still weaker then DFKs and their attack is exactly the same as a NA unless they've been by a Swordsman's guild, still 25f more expensive pr turn and they are on full castle upgrade after. So thou they might be a fine unit, I still prefere to use NAs for my swordsmans needs, if not DFKs.
Thou I actually dislikes DFK and mostly try to avoid training them, as they (as I said in another thread) can't kill anything with more armor then a garden snail ~:)

Almost all factions have fast cavalry (Mailed Knights for most western Europeans) that can catch up to and capture a General or other heavy cavalry. Here's a good thread about cavalry values:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=fast+cavalry

So just to try to put everything together on my methodology of Danish field battles:

1. Use Norse Archers to bring the enemy forward. Castle crossbowmen are okay too, but much harder to reach and not quite as reliable or durable.

2. Swordstaff militia hold the line and contain the enemy, but don't kill so many that the rout is on.

3. Huscarls and War Clerics clear away the enemy ranged units and envelope the main line while Norse Archers and heavy infantry move to the flanks.

4. A volley of fire arrows and a charge by available cavalry and the NA/HI sparks the rout, and hopefully the enemy General doesn't just carve a path out and escape.

This method gets you maximum prisoners for ransom and easy soldier experience.

As an example of the cavalry speed issue when I fought what should have been the last battle against the Timurids in my campaign their last Khan fled the battle at the end. I sent Scouts to chase him, and actually was able to use infantry to head him off twice, so that he crossed the map three times before escaping. My Scouts simply never got close to him, even when he turned around and I cut the corner he was able to stay ahead of them easily. Extremely frustrating.

I found with the axemen that they suffer from the infantry charge problem. If you get a well executed (or lucky) charge off then they get a huge head start in the battle, but a lot of times the charge is all scattered out and their momentum grinds to a halt. I tell you what though, they get some of the best combat animations in the game close up. Sometimes when they do the footsweep attack on a wall the enemy goes flying right off the edge; it's awesome to watch.

:egypt:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

Almost all factions have fast cavalry (Mailed Knights for most western Europeans) that can catch up to and capture a General or other heavy cavalry. Here's a good thread about cavalry values:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=fast+cavalry

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Alright, that was news to me. Interesting. T
hou it seems that Crusade Knights, Huscarls and Mailed Knights (War clerics assumed also, but can't find stats on that one) all have the same speed. So don't know why Huscarls should be worse at capturing routers, unless it an "animation issue".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

So just to try to put everything together on my methodology of Danish field battles:

1. Use Norse Archers to bring the enemy forward. Castle crossbowmen are okay too, but much harder to reach and not quite as reliable or durable.

2. Swordstaff militia hold the line and contain the enemy, but don't kill so many that the rout is on.

3. Huscarls and War Clerics clear away the enemy ranged units and envelope the main line while Norse Archers and heavy infantry move to the flanks.

4. A volley of fire arrows and a charge by available cavalry and the NA/HI sparks the rout, and hopefully the enemy General doesn't just carve a path out and escape.

This method gets you maximum prisoners for ransom and easy soldier experience.

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It's a fine strategy, but remember everyone.
Consider and define your strategy for each battle according to your own stack and (more importantly) your enemies stack.

Thou I find the castle crossbowmen close to pointless. I use the militia ones in stead. Lower upkeep, same range and effect and the defense isn't really that important. If they get in a melee situation, you've made a mistake and should be rightfully punished for it and in case of archer v archer, the blacksmith upgrades evens out the difference in armor and defense skill difference only matters in melee)

The speed thing is more complicated that I remembered. A thread specifically about it:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...=cavalry+speed

It's quite possible that my tests with Scouts failed because Scouts have no stamina bonus and simply become tired before they can catch an enemy General. War Clerics are in the same boat I think, but Huscarls (IIRC) do have some stamina and should have the same mount as Mailed Knights and I still don't remember ever catching an enemy General with them. I'll have to check it again.

I didn't address offensive sieges either, where I'd usually avoid bringing swordstaves just because they're not killers even if you use NA to force the enemy out of the square.

:egypt:

not meaning to be a jerk NA are versatile units but...

ottoman infintry can do the same.~D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

The speed thing is more complicated that I remembered. A thread specifically about it:

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I used the speedstats from R'as al Ghul's fact sheets: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=76702
http://www.mizus.com/Ras/Cavalry.html
Don't think it is wrong to assume them correct?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

It's quite possible that my tests with Scouts failed because Scouts have no stamina bonus and simply become tired before they can catch an enemy General.

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Scouts use standart ponys (normal), so they aren't really faster then Huscarls or Frankish Knights. It's correct that Denmark has no FAST cavs, but since Generals bodyguards are slow, normal should be able to cut it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

I didn't address offensive sieges either, where I'd usually avoid bringing swordstaves just because they're not killers even if you use NA to force the enemy out of the square.

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After you warm recommendations, I made an effort yesterday to have some swordstaffs join my western Europe army and used them on a couple of sieges. I thought they worked just fine. Vulnerable to tower fire and missile units, but actually great front line troops with a small army of NAs volleying fire at the chargers. Once i breached the walls and took the walldefenders out, I had very few casualties in the streets, as the units that charged out of the center routed shortly after meeting the spearwall due to the rain of fire.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

not meaning to be a jerk NA are versatile units but...

ottoman infintry can do the same.~D

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Agreed, but also noticed earlier. As I previously said, the real strength of the Norse Archer, is their early arrival in your armies, making them a fairly good choice as both archer and swordman.
I'm not sure, but based on the rest of the Turkish rooster, I would assume that Ottoman infantry is a 3lvl unit, thus making it a less interesting unit compared to other availabilities on the same castle level.

Agreed with the OOP. In fact, in the early game, I tend to consider them as melee infantry with a ranged attack rather than archers. For some reason they seem to be a bit worse at fighting than norse swords (who have the same stats), but then again they're low tech meaning you can replenish your losses pretty much everywhere.
My main tactic with NA is to use them as my first defensive line - pepper the enemy as he closes (targetting either unarmored stuff, or the general and pray for a lucky shot), then countercharge, with axemen/swordsmen behind to plug any gaps or take advantage of any weakpoints in the enemy lines.

Now, if they could have stakes too... :)

Is this relevant again?
Have have the last 15 years given any new advise and/or strat?
Is this still valid for mobile?

Can't wait to start my Danish campaign on mobile :2thumbsup: