British education - is it really so bad ?

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Top of the class in England - but Polish boy goes home for better education
By PAUL SIMS

When Aleksander Kucharski arrived in Britain from Poland, he expected he would get a first-class education.

He was accepted at a Roman Catholic state school which boasts one of the best academic records in the country and is recognised by Ofsted as outstanding.

But after two years he is so disillusioned that he has gone home to his old school, saying his British classmates were interested only in shopping and partying.


Disillusioned: 16-year-old Aleksander Kucharski has gone back to Poland for his education after two years in an English school

"I was treading water within the British education system," said 16-year-old Aleksander.

"The boys were childish, they didn't read papers and weren't interested in anything.

"And the girls only talked about shopping and what they were going to do on Friday night.

"In Poland you have to know the names of all countries, even the rivers. But in England hardly anyone could place Kenya or Poland on the map. The teachers didn't test knowledge, only effort."

Aleksander started at St Thomas More High School in North Shields, North Tyneside, after his parents, who are both doctors, came to England.

In June he informed his mother Anja, a psychiatrist, and father Robert, a medical consultant, that he was returning home to continue his schooling.

While they remained here, Aleksander went back to Lodz in Poland, where he has moved in with his grandmother and enrolled at III Liceum Ogolnoksztalcace, a state school.



'Outstanding': St Thomas More High School in North Shields
Although he received glowing praise from his Tyneside teachers, Aleksander claims he was being held back by other pupils, whom he accused of having no interest in learning new things.

He said: "Here in Lodz I go to debates, I talk about films and I try to persuade people not to use plastic bags. During the elections here we posted flyers for my neighbour who was out campaigning.

"But in Newcastle no one cared about globalisation, the greenhouse effect, the EU, war or politics.

"Maybe it's because they get everything on a plate, because there was no communism there and there's no real poverty, they don't need to worry about their future.

"In Poland parents tell their children about financial problems. But in Britain I think they don't have them or they tried to hide them, to buy their children everything."

Aleksander said that before he left Poland he was an average student.

"In Poland, I only ever got average marks in maths, yet in the UK teachers said I was a genius," he claimed yesterday. "After a year I was top of the class in everything, and that includes English."

The excellent facilities at St Thomas More failed to improve educational standards there, he said.

"They would give me a list of terms and definitions. The teacher told us to put them into pairs and colour them the right colour - like at primary school."

Last night, the deputy head of his school in Lodz, Agata Jagielska, said: "We know that Polish pupils are better at acquiring facts and knowledge.

"Perhaps because we are poorer and we don't have such great facilities in Poland, pupils are more motivated to seek out possibilities for themselves."

St Thomas More is one of the best performing schools in the country. A total of 1,700 students aged between 11 and 18 attend the school which was established in 1988 following amalgamation and has won several national awards for excellence.

A spokesman for North Tyneside Council said: "Every child and parent has the right to choose the education they wish.

"We are disappointed that this pupil has decided to move away.

"Only weeks ago St Thomas More was recognised by Ofsted as being an outstanding school with 82 per cent of students achieving five or more A*-C grades. Among those, 16 came out with nine or more A*-A grades."

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I have friends who are working in the UK and quite many agree that the education is somehow wrong, but they are all over 20 so not a single one of them can say a word about the pre-uni level education in the UK.



I have spent about a year in the UK too and because of my interests I have read a number of historical books - once or twice I even checked what the British pupils have to know to pass GCSE and I thought it is rather easy... Still I thought it is rather due to my vast knowledge than the general level of the British education - mind that I have checked all the questions, mainly about British history and I had no contact with certain information since my old days in the secondary school (so circa 10 years ago) so I assumed I could not understand/not be able to answer a couple of questions.


Next - I remember some polls about the general knowledge of the citizens of the UK and some of those got rather suprising results - like some 15 % assuming that Churchill never existed...



About the Polish education system I cannot say much right now, though I have heard it is worse than in 'my times' - still our GCSE (matura) remains quite difficult to pass with some 20 % failing last year and the level of general knowledge you HAVE to know is still decent.




So I am asking you guys is that REALLY so bad in the UK ? Or is it an usual Daily Mail nonsense.


Still I have read a text about the teenager in a polish newspaper (not a tabloid) some time ago and it looks very similar so seems rather reliable...



And finally - some of my friends are going to study in the Uk after they finish in Poland, but for now all seem interested in getting 'the paper' rather than to learn anything new (except the language).

Isn't everything better in Poland??

FRAGONY - are you from the UK ? Are you going to discuss the topic ?

If not - go to your cave, thank you.

We don't have caves in the Netherlands, didn't you know??

Gentlemen, we have an interesting topic posted for debate.

Let's concentrate on that rather than pot-shots at each other.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Gentlemen, we have an interesting topic posted for debate.

Let's concentrate on that rather than pot-shots at each other.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

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Please delete all the off-topic posts before another troll appears to ask about polar bears, global warming, Bush, Putin or anything else which is not about the British education.

Thanks.:2thumbsup:

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his British classmates were interested only in shopping and partying.

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there, I think, is the core of the problem in this case. Britain still has a heavy streak of anti-intellectualism. I'm afraid the know-nothings are in the majority and want to drag everyone down to their level. I've been out of school for more decades than I care to recall now, but seeing my friends' kids is depressing - how little they know, how stunted their thinking and short-sighted their goals.

Although the problems show up in education, I don't think they're purely educational problems. It's all to do with an atomised society, easy affluence, lack of understanding of consequences, lack of compassion, it's all "rights" and no "responsibilities", our kids are getting older but they aren't growing up.

Oh dear, that was bit of a Daily Mail moment, I must sit down a little til I recover ~D

Or put another way:

"Luxury! In my day we had to live in a paper bag in the middle of the motorway, lick road clean for us breakfast, then we'd go to work down the pit and pay for the privilege. But tell that to kids today ...." :laugh4:

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Or is it an usual Daily Mail nonsense.

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Possibly , when there are things like...Maybe it's because they get everything on a plate, because there was no communism there and there's no real poverty, they don't need to worry about their future.
...in it it is a good clue as to the spin .
Newcastle Eh , that was the place that lost almost all of its industry right , the place where due to rampant poverty and people trying to get out of the place to find a future the government would sell a houses to people for 50 pence if they promised that they would actually live in Newcastle and stay there .

I especially agree about the part about testing effort rather than knowledge, which seems common in all of western Europe. If you're really good (because you learnt it earlier, or have talent), but didn't have to work hard to produce the correct answer, you're punished for it. That's not really fair because a lot of people with good brains have other disadvantages, like not that easy finding a mate to reproduce with, or being able to show his/her social skills when applying for a job (being able to show them, and having them, are different things). Why should they be deprived of their one strength and given less help to improve themselves further, than the people at school that won't improve anyway no matter how much help they're given? It's those less successful at school that get all the help that go and take all high-wage jobs and good-looking women for wives anyway. Having decent brains is painful enough as it is, there's no need for school to add insult to injury and reppress intelligent people for their intelligence. At least not, unless you also start punishing and restraining good-looking and charming people at parties, or restraining people who talk loud and have an easy to convincing others that they have social skill (even if they often haven't) at job interviews, but that isn't going to happen.

[quote]there, I think, is the core of the problem in this case. Britain still has a heavy streak of anti-intellectualism. I'm afraid the know-nothings are in the majority and want to drag everyone down to their level. I've been out of school for more decades than I care to recall now, but seeing my friends' kids is depressing - how little they know, how stunted their thinking and short-sighted their goals.

Although the problems show up in education, I don't think they're purely educational problems. It's all to do with an atomised society, easy affluence, lack of understanding of consequences, lack of compassion, it's all "rights" and no "responsibilities", our kids are getting older but they aren't growing up.[quote]
Seems true enough. I would like to add that anti-intellectualism is something that has always been there regarding mankind. The majority of humans is average, usually simpletons, with lack of morality, lack of wisdom, judgment, intellect, and so forth, and they heavily operate on ego, emotions, and desires, which would make matters worse, as these dominant traits could easily prevent the previously mentioned higher traits from swelling up.

However I must say just because a person has "received education" -- rather called schooling -- and this person is above the rest it does not mean this person is intellectual. It just shows a good student or learner who is reasonably smart, and smarter than the aaaaverage bear....? :laugh4:


@Rodion Romanovich
From what I have seen it seems education is designed indeed to aid the average and the stupid and to neglect the intelligent. What you mentioned about intelligent people having certain problems -- usually socio-emotional -- isn't always true though it seems to occur often. It it just about power, majority, and the likes, and the minority is suffering for it.

International tests of science and maths tend to put UK schools as roughly equal to US ones in performance and both somewhat below those of most other OECD countries. Poland has not participated in any of these tests, except the Second IEA Science round, where it outperformed the UK by around 10%. So I find it plausible that Polish schools might be thought better than UK schools.

On the Daily Mail report, I did wonder whether Poland has a more "traditional" and knowledge-based curriculum than the UK. For example, I doubt British geography lessons would focus on things like where Kenya is or what is its capital. They would focus on the processes of soil erosion or other such topics. Some people I know whose kids move from foreign schools to UK ones have reported the level of maths taught is lower than in their countries, but again the curriculum may differ. I was looking at the Maths Standard Attainment Tests for 11 year olds and they were almost like IQ problem-solving tests, rather than routine algebra and numerical calculations that might be expected in Japan or China.

Teaching in a UK university, I have not noticed a tendency for British students to be outperformed by other Europeans - quite the contrary, although there is of course a big language disadvantage. I find British students tend to be very good at the "essay-based" questions, whereas European students sometimes struggle with that format. Culturally, the UK seems less inclined towards the maths and science that tends to be what is internationally tested.

There are also probably issues about British school children not being very switched on school - perhaps particularly boys. But on the other hand those that do make it to the university I teach at are very hardworking and well motivated (although they do tend to see education very instrumentally as the route to a high paying job rather than as intellectually interesting in itself.)

There's been a lot of debate about whether UK education has improved or declined. But some innovations - like the Standard Attainment Tests, like the literacy and numeracy hours - do seem to be improvements. And my impression is that at university, British students are well equipped to keep pace with subjects that do tend to advance fairly rapidly over time. Specifically, economics, the discipline I teach, has advanced a lot since the 1960s, so that what must be taught for an undergraduate degree is at a higher level than what was taught 20 years ago. I've heard mathematicians express an opposite concern - that their first year entrants are no longer as well equipped as a few decades ago - so it may vary by subject.

Luckily there are still enough schools mainly, but not exclusively in the Private sector who are elitist and do spend more time stretching the abilities of their pupils rather than pretending that all can somehow get to the same level without in any way stressing them.

There is only the need for a few highly qualified people in percentage terms to fill the top posts in the country for the country to continue functioning. The rest can continue to be political pawns for the Commons - where did most of the Front Bench and Opposition Bench go to school? Generally Private / Grammer and then on to Oxbridge - as will happen to their kids.

~:smoking:

Grat Post Rodion Romanovich. :2thumbsup:

Also why would someone(excluding geologists) want to know all the rivers of all countries? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Grat Post Rodion Romanovich. :2thumbsup:

Also why would someone(excluding geologists) want to know all the rivers of all countries? :inquisitive:

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NOONE says ALL, but a number of them would be all you need - can you imagine someone who isn't expected to know where for example Nile is ?

It is all about the general knowledge we gain when learning in schools - if that decreases in time the democracy will be a farce...

Speaking of which, where is Nile?

I too have heard rumors of this so called 'nyle' in my US education. I would also like to hear this legend confirmed or debunked. Any scholars available willing to chime in?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Speaking of which, where is Nile?

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Brazil IIRC.
I heard about some team that wanted to explore this myth but never returned. :no:
Was about some aztec pyramids or so.

Looks like there is no denial that educational standards have declined then. :no:

Bah. Back when I was young, we had to learn all of the world's important rivers. I can still sum them all up: the Rhine, the Meuse, the Seine, the Garonne, the Adour, the Loire, the Rhône.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Looks like there is no denial that educational standards have declined then. :no:

Bah. Back when I was young, we had to learn all of the world's important rivers. I can still sum them all up: the Rhine, the Meuse, the Seine, the Garonne, the Adour, the Loire, the Rhône.

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sounds like you had to learn all of europes major rivers!~D

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Looks like there is no denial that educational standards have declined then. :no:

Bah. Back when I was young, we had to learn all of the world's important rivers. I can still sum them all up: the Rhine, the Meuse, the Seine, the Garonne, the Adour, the Loire, the Rhône.

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How is the Rhine important?

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

How is the Rhine important?

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Think about the Weimar republic before this evil dictator took over.

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British education - is it really so bad ?

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You cant compare if you dont have at least 10 countries education. Because it seems better than ours.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

How is the Rhine important?

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Without it my boat would sitting on sand, that is bad for a boat but considering the UK educational standards you probably wouldn't understand. But let's get back on topic because this is deeply tragic, how would you feel if you went to the UK for the chicks and had to get back to Poland for an education?

Is it just me folks, or does the young Master Aleksander Kucharskier seem to be marching to the beat of a different drum? I mean, how many 16 year olds have that kind of focus? He seems to me to be an exception rather than the rule. While I do admit that the education system in the west in general is falling behind in some areas, I can't believe that Britain-the leading practitioner of the Public School System, is that far behind Poland. I also find it hard to swallow that 16 year olds are that much superior from one country to the next.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Looks like there is no denial that educational standards have declined then. :no:

Bah. Back when I was young, we had to learn all of the world's important rivers. I can still sum them all up: the Rhine, the Meuse, the Seine, the Garonne, the Adour, the Loire, the Rhône.

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Indeed, those are all the rivers you need to know when you order where your tanks should get rolling to! :tongue:

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Originally Posted by rotorgun

I can't believe that Britain-the leading practitioner of the Public School System, is that far behind Poland. I also find it hard to swallow that 16 year olds are that much superior from one country to the next.

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The poles I used to enslave contract for my chicken/fish cleaning fetish certainly weren't the most interesting persons I have ever met, but the owner of the camping where I housed them seemed to disagree :laugh4: :laugh4:

*Beats his monitor with a stick to get the words off*

Yes, state schools, at least, are a disaster.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Without it my boat would sitting on sand, that is bad for a boat but considering the UK educational standards you probably wouldn't understand. But let's get back on topic because this is deeply tragic, how would you feel if you went to the UK for the chicks and had to get back to Poland for an education?

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Dissapointed. Ba-dum-tish. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

Dissapointed. Ba-dum-tish. :shame:

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See what I am getting to? This had Chopin nocturne in c-minor all over it. You go to the land of milk and honey and find out milk comes from cows, and the little honey there is to be found is sure to get you stung. You go back and find out Polanski and Chopin beat you to it.

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Originally Posted by rotorgun

Is it just me folks, or does the young Master Aleksander Kucharskier seem to be marching to the beat of a different drum? I mean, how many 16 year olds have that kind of focus? He seems to me to be an exception rather than the rule.

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I really doubt that. There is a huge growth of demand for knowledge in recent years especially.
Most likely he was just an ordinary student if he didn't win any awards - which isn't mentioned - in his high school in Lodz which is rather avarage too... at least I haven't see the 3rd LO in Lodz anywhere at the top in school ratings. :juggle2:


Here is their webpage (foreign language sections do not work - perhaps yet )

http://trojka.szkoly.lodz.pl/index.htm

there is no information about any great achievements... Lodz is a large city, so the school might be better than in a number of smaller cities, but that is all.


BTW It is Kucharski

Hm... everyone here only talks about state schools and private schools... but they forgot... GRAMMAR SCHOOLS!

I go to one, not as bad as state schools, but not as good as privates either. But when I first came here from China, I was quite surprised at the standards here, and for primary school and first couple years in the grammar school I coasted through easily. I can easily see why schools from other countries might be better than those here.