Is it normal AI behavior?

I am a veteran STW, MTW player. I installed RTW gold yesterday. I am currently fighting my first imperial campaign as Julii (normal/normal, unit size one step bigger than normal, v1.6, bug-fixer 3.36 applied). The game looks good but ... the battlefield AI appears retarded. For instance, I attacked a small rebel army with an equal force; however, I had one less command star. As I am not used to high speed of movement my units got scattered and separated and one of my hastatii ended up engaging with its rear towards enemy general cavalry unit that stood unengaged just 20m or so away. A perfect "sandwich" opportunity for the enemy! In STW and MTW the unit would have been royally screwed. However, the enemy commander just stood there doing nothing. There was no reason to keep away from battle as all my units were either far away or routing. What the hell? :thumbsdown:

In another battle I attacked a superior force. I had one unit of archers and the enemy had none. I sent the archers forward to harass the enemy. In STW and MTW the enemy would have sent a unit to chase the archers away. No such luck. They just sat there taking fire until my archers ran out of arrows. :no:

Is such AI behavior normal in RTW?

P.S. The campaign is a cakewalk despite the fact that I do not understand half of the features of the new strategy map. I just walk over the Gauls with no real resistance. Am I really that good? Or is the AI seriously lacking? :inquisitive:

It's a trade-off...

In MTW, AI generals used to be very reckless and charged headlong into the meatgrinder. In RTW, AI is far more protective of its generals, even if it occasionally leads to missed opportunities.

As far as walking over Gauls, well, they're Gauls, also known as "Whipping Boys of the Julii". There are much harder factions.

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Originally Posted by Cruelsader

A perfect "sandwich" opportunity for the enemy! In STW and MTW the unit would have been royally screwed. However, the enemy commander just stood there doing nothing.

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what you telling here happen in my RTW 1.5(not only the general unit stand still and doing nothing,it is the whole AI units give no respond),only the RTW 1.0 battle AI will try to "sandwich" your units,but campaign AI of RTW 1.0 will build lot of fleet compare to RTW 1.5's campaign AI built lot of army.....that why i rather get RTW 1.0 battle AI.....:no: :whip:

now my RTW have been put aside,and i am playing Resident Evil 4 now....

hope the CA will produce a new patch that mixing up RTW 1.0 battle AI and campaign AI of RTW 1.5......:sweatdrop:
i rather the general unit will doing that suicide attack and i will having more fun in RTW 1.0 battle AI

My personal favourite is when you attack a small group of rebels, always rebels, but just before engagement pullback and stop, they will not charge you so you can exhaust your pila on them, move your units so you flank them, swing your general behind their general unit then waste their infantry before surrounding their general. They do not move at all, not even to rout!!:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by rvg

In MTW, AI generals used to be very reckless and charged headlong into the meatgrinder. In RTW, AI is far more protective of its generals, even if it occasionally leads to missed opportunities.

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Only in vanilla. (The same is true of STW) A patch took care of suicidal commanders but did not make them overcautious. A "patched" commander of MTW would have charged in such situation.

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Originally Posted by mrdun

My personal favourite is when you attack a small group of rebels, always rebels, but just before engagement pullback and stop, they will not charge you so you can exhaust your pila on them, move your units so you flank them, swing your general behind their general unit then waste their infantry before surrounding their general. They do not move at all, not even to rout!!:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by guineawolf

what you telling here happen in my RTW 1.5(not only the general unit stand still and doing nothing,it is the whole AI units give no respond),only the RTW 1.0 battle AI will try to "sandwich" your units

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Well, it seems to be a bug then.

Odd. I just recently got gold edition as well and i've found the generals to be very suicidal. I've seen them charge into the spears of a phalanx formation.

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Originally Posted by Cruelsader

...one of my hastatii ended up engaging with its rear towards enemy general cavalry unit that stood unengaged just 20m or so away. A perfect "sandwich" opportunity for the enemy! In STW and MTW the unit would have been royally screwed. However, the enemy commander just stood there doing nothing. There was no reason to keep away from battle as all my units were either far away or routing. What the hell? :thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by Brave_Sir_Robin

Odd. I just recently got gold edition as well and i've found the generals to be very suicidal. I've seen them charge into the spears of a phalanx formation.

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Both cases are typical. AI generals seem to see Hoplites, and Phalanx Pikemen units as simple infantry and don't take the phalanx ability into account. Sometimes it seems like they do as when you remove a unit from phalanx the AI cavalry/chariot unit does react by either advancing or charging. The problem is that they also seem to charge all too readily when the unit is in phalanx formation.

So it's not simply a case of generals holding off from the action but moreso some kind of "misjudgement" by the AI.

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Originally Posted by Cruelsader

In another battle I attacked a superior force. I had one unit of archers and the enemy had none. I sent the archers forward to harass the enemy. In STW and MTW the enemy would have sent a unit to chase the archers away. No such luck. They just sat there taking fire until my archers ran out of arrows. :no:

Is such AI behavior normal in RTW?

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Also typical and normal AI behaviour in RTW. This game is not noted for it's battle AI which has been proven to be worse that the previous two games. There is no doubt that tactical battles in STW and MTW were superior in almost every respect.

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Originally Posted by Cruelsader

P.S. The campaign is a cakewalk despite the fact that I do not understand half of the features of the new strategy map. I just walk over the Gauls with no real resistance. Am I really that good? Or is the AI seriously lacking? :inquisitive:

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The campaign is easy enough to start with but all the micromanagement tends to get a little overhwhelming once you're past the Marian reforms and have conquered a larger area and have conquered Rome and wiped out the SPQR. I usually give up at this point because it usually involves taking on massive Brutii or Scipii stacks in numerous rather large and dull battles.

Gaul are very easy to take on, because the AI is totally useless at deploying and attacking with the Gaulish warbands. The Britons are much the same, and the only thing that makes them considerably more dangerous are the ridiculous chariots. If you play as Gaul you'll find that they are a strong faction and much more challenging that the Romans. With the Gauls you do need to deploy your forces intelligently and make maximum use of their strengths, unlike the Roman units where you can throw javelins then charge and flank with cavalry.

There is worse. Sieges can be tedious. One of the major issues is where the AI is sieging you and sends it's units into the city piecemeal to be systematically destroyed. Once they're all dead the general continues to camp outside the walls. His lack of involvement keeps him safe, but ruins his army's chances of taking the city.

I fought a battle like this in RTW recently. Only two enemy units were still on the field, the General camped outside the walls out of arrowshot and one remnant of a Brutii ELC unit was stuck atop the wall and it's status was "fighting to the death" except it was fighting nothing. I had to send two units up there to deal with them and then hoped the general would either advance or retreat, or do anything. The ELC unit took ages to kill as it was stopped partially inside a tower. Once it was dead I hope it would "unlock" the AI as I have seen so many times before, especially with ballistas shooting at towers. This time it didn't happen and the general remained. So I had to sally my small force, who were now quite battered after having fought off 3000 Brutii and prepare to take on the general. As they approached the general he merely turned around and withdrew, battle over.

Then there was another recent battle with a unit of Iberian Infantry that had entered one of my cities in a siege, scattered all over city, and I mean individual men. Mousing over them simply showed the word "Spain" and nothing else. Targeting them was also impossible. In the end I had to walk my cavalry around the map hunting down the individual men and deploying in their midst or close to them and let the cavalry attack them automatically. Basically more tedium where I as the player am forced to work around irritating bugs, wasting my time.

All in all I'd advise you to forget vanilla and go for one of the realism mods, though none of the mods claim to fix everything that is wrong with this game.

:bow:

Just look at the quote in my sig, says it all really.

Well, I think the AI is "okay" both tac and strat.... this is Rome 1.5 with the RTR mod.

I even got ambushed 2 or 3 times...the spanish and macedonians throw everything they have against me and it is a hard fight... meanwhile Carthago lands in Sicily (with 2 stacks or so .. oh well..)...yes I´m at war with 4 countries (gauls,iberians, carthago and macedonia)...they won´t accept peace also... hard fight..

What I noted: Early in the game it was quite easy. I fought the Greeks with good success. Made peace. Then Carthago declared war... but did nothing excpet destroying my fleets and blockading ports... annoying..but not deadly. Well I landed in Corsica.. and took the last city on Sicily. Then Gaul declared war.. not it became tricky. Shure I could take most of northern italy as well a part of Gaul. Then Macedonia declred war... I took 2 of their cities. And now... the AI seemed to awaken. I guess there is a kind of trigger, that makes the enemy more agressive. They now are determined to getback their cities ! Macedonia managed to hold me up on te cost roadseverall times even if I won the battles my army wasn´t strong enough...Carthago took back Sardinia and now landed in Sicily... the Iberians now must face destruction shure but slow...I guess if I can concentrate my force than to the east and south it will be easier..

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Also typical and normal AI behaviour in RTW. This game is not noted for it's battle AI which has been proven to be worse that the previous two games. There is no doubt that tactical battles in STW and MTW were superior in almost every respect.

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Sad news. I knew that RTW is primarily about 3D graphics and new strategy map and did not expect much improvement from battlefield AI. Nonetheless, it comes as an unpleasant suprise that CA failed to keep the previous standard.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

The campaign is easy enough to start with but all the micromanagement tends to get a little overhwhelming once you're past the Marian reforms and have conquered a larger area and have conquered Rome and wiped out the SPQR. I usually give up at this point because it usually involves taking on massive Brutii or Scipii stacks in numerous rather large and dull battles.

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I see. I finished the Julii short campaign: it was rather boring in the end despite the fact that it was my first game. :no: I had plenty of cash, so all I did was sending armies toward fronts and auto resolve, except when the stacks were very large. When I commanded the armies on the field, it was ridiculously easy: often I was able to destroy the enemy with 1:20 losses - and these were not bridge/ford battles! However, I guess I understand what you mean by micromanagement. My greatest worry in the end was not the enemy but my own cities. I had to micromanage constantly to keep them happy.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

There is worse. Sieges can be tedious. One of the major issues is where the AI is sieging you and sends it's units into the city piecemeal to be systematically destroyed. Once they're all dead the general continues to camp outside the walls. His lack of involvement keeps him safe, but ruins his army's chances of taking the city.

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By piecemeal do you mean that AI only attacks from one side? I have had only one siege battle where I was a sort of defender. Well, I was an attacker but since the AI had a small garrison and lot of reinforcements it turned out I had to defend the settlement after taking it. Taking it was very easy because the AI pulled most of its garrison out of the plaza to join the attacking force :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Cruelsader

By piecemeal do you mean that AI only attacks from one side? I have had only one siege battle where I was a sort of defender. Well, I was an attacker but since the AI had a small garrison and lot of reinforcements it turned out I had to defend the settlement after taking it. Taking it was very easy because the AI pulled most of its garrison out of the plaza to join the attacking force :dizzy2:

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???:dizzy2: What???

I guess it may have happened like this: :idea2:

1) At the start of the battle: small defending garrison in the town, large defending reinforcing army outside.

2) I attack the gates, AI reinforcing army is marching toward my army

3) I break the gates and enter the town, approximately the same time the AI reinforcing army tries to form a line. Two out of three garrison units hurry toward the line (to form up?)

4) I engage and defeat the single remaining garrision unit. Countdown begins. The AI reinforcing army and two garrison units rush towards plaza.

Even with all the patches and stuff, the AI remains dumb as a door.

To get a better AI adversary you have to download and play the Darth Mod: RTW, there are several battle formations the AI will follow trough the game, but still it´s an AI, what can you expect..

Yupo, the Darth formations are also integrated in RTR.. and it helps. For example the spear + phalanx units build really the useful formations... but it doesn´t help them if they are outmanouvered and attack from 2 or 3 sides.. guess that is quite realistic (?)...

Maybe the battles are to small, I can think of commanders that have 20000 troops or so under command that they try to "anchor" the phalanx on some terrain features or provide protection for the flanks... in reality I mean.

While in the game with 1000 men or so it is quite difficult to build the kind of wall the ancient forces did with spears and phalanx...

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Originally Posted by Alpha666

Maybe the battles are to small, I can think of commanders that have 20000 troops or so under command that they try to "anchor" the phalanx on some terrain features or provide protection for the flanks... in reality I mean. While in the game with 1000 men or so it is quite difficult to build the kind of wall the ancient forces did with spears and phalanx...

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Correct me if I am wrong but one unit of spearman is about 450 men when playing with largest units size. This means that you can field about 9000 men in one army. Playing with large unit size probably has its own problems, e.g. streertfight is too constraining, AI depeleting its population on strategic map etc

AFAIK the largest units in vanilla RTW on the largest unit size are 241 ?

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Originally Posted by Caravel

AFAIK the largest units in vanilla RTW on the largest unit size are 241 ?

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Yes, on "Huge" its 240, +1 if a General's unit.

As far as I know, its up to 243 if the unit has two officers/standard bearers and a captain/general in its ranks.

Just not 450 then. :laugh:

No. I am new to RTW as I wrote. Made a wrong assumption. The moral of the story: dont make assumptions. Check it out.