Clean Elections Argentina 2007

I don't know how elections are supposed to be in your country, but let me tell you how they're supposed to be in mine, and how they were this last week. For those who don't know Cristina Kirchner was elected as our new president (confiming my prognostic that the womans are starting to dominate the new age, if they didn't from the start :balloon2: ). Now election time here begins a few months before that single day in which every person puts his vote in the urn. We've a multipartidist system, meaning that you'll start to hear about people you've never heard about, at least on politics, from that date on, promising all kinds of things and with beautiful slogans that don't mean anything. I as most people here just ignore everything until the day that we've to lock ourselves and choose between parctically undistiguishable parties. During the time between the party inscriptions and the voting every great party (those that expend 1000000 pesos or more in their campaing, asking for the help of famous stars, directors, and such...Do I've to mention that a great part of that money comes out of taxes? And that while they do this propaganda there's still jobless people and children alienated and dying of hunger?) makes a public campaing out of nice speeches and street repairing, just to show how nice they're (again the street reparing is founded with tax money), this is becoming so obvious lately that they're shameless, and people get more and more dissapointed everytime, what happened this elections can only be described as general apathy. On those public speeches they, the party members, literally start buying votes, by going to the poorest neiborghoods in the country (which are the majority) and giving people who assist to these speeches cheap wine and food, a nice exchange, everyone gets what he needs, right, people who are dying of hunger get food and drink while parties get their much appreciated votes. This is mostly what happens on that interlude, while journalists and media distort things by saying that someone is already going to win (in this case Cristina) without taking responsability for how much that affects votes (considering that people are starting to vote more and more based on popularity and not on personal conviction), but people just keep ignoring this, they ignore debates, they just care about their lives, and they've every right to do so. Then comes the election day, when the "gorillas" get out of the jungle and go to the voting places. The vote here is secret, universal and obligatory, this is important to what I'm saying, you're mandated by law to vote if you're 18 years old or more (if you're 60 years old or more you don't need to vote no more, but you can), if you don't you can be fined or, depending on the conditions, even locked in jail. The voting is carried out on public places around the country, mostly public schools. Tables are arranged with an urn on each one, and a number of people seat on those tables controlling who comes to vote, if that person is voting on the right place assigned to him and they also give that person a signed and official marked envelope to enter the "dark room" where you choose between a variety of lists. Once alone inside the room (and don't even think about making your vote public on election day because you can be fined, or again, even locked in jail, this is useful, though, to prevent influencing the vote of other people...But that has already been done before hasn't it?) you either pick up a single list (which details the name of thousands of nobodies that integrate a single party, with president and vicepresident up on the list), or pick a part of it, break it and pick a part of another list and also break it and then you put them inside the envelope close it, leave the room, put the envelope inside the urn, take your documentation that you used to prove your identity and get out, waiting for a vallotage or for four years to pass. Now, why did I call the voters "gorillas", read this: when the election day was coming to an end (thankfully I voted early) many, an impressive number of voters, found that they couldn't find the lists they wanted, some said that those lists (you cannot name which list because it will be considered as if you were making your vote public, you only have to tell the table that there's lists missing without specifying anything) where inside a bag, all broken, some others said that the chief of the table refused to help the voter with the missing lists, they just didn't replace the ones missing, now this could be that they're plainly incompetent...But that's not everything that happened, that's already shameful, but what I heard after that was more infurating: people being denied their passage into the "dark room", people being bullied to vote somebody (most people say Cristina Kirchner, unsurprisingly), and those broken and missing lists were also probably the work of the "gorillas". There were various denouncements of fraud during the day, not only based on this anomalies I mentioned, but worse, some counting even from before the election day, but in the end nothing mattered, everything was ok at the end of the day, election day was stretched to allow those millions of people without the lists they wanted, to vote, the winners made a nice but analogue speech to every party before them... Well I think that depicts how elections are here, this election was different, but not better, most elections are like that...

I'm so dissapointed at many people here, my own brother nullified his vote (which means that you actually don't put anything inside the envelope), people who don't think, who are not responsable, people who don't have time to consider their vote because they're too busy working, taking care of their families or, again, dying of hunger. People who sell their votes, people who vote nobody, people who don't remember that we passed from a dictatorship unto another (we actually had very few presidential democratic elections since the day of our independence on 1816) and that many people paid with their lives so that we can vote again, people who simply don't give a crap about politics and then complain when they don't get what they want, acting like children. In the end I cannot help but thinking that the voting should be restricted in this country, it was restricted to rich people in the begining and it wasn't any better, but I'm simply running out of ideas. This country is trully on a vicious circle apathy which leads to bad governments which lead to apathy again, and I don't see a way out. I'll confese that I was one of those persons, not so long ago, that would have said "I'll stay always in my country and help it, before going abroad", but I just don't have the energy anymore, I don't fear for my future here, but for my families future, on some thread recently I said that I was more loyal to the community, sadly the community is not responding to anything, and I think that on the first opportunity I've to leave this country legally with my family I'll do so.

My question for the reader would be: What do you think? Can elections like that be called democratic? Should this country restrict its vote? Just imagine that this was your country to answer the question.

Sadly, a lot of what you said reminds me of the US elections.

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This country is trully on a vicious circle apathy which leads to bad governments which lead to apathy again, and I don't see a way out.

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I heard that from a lot of people when I was in Argentina. They said "Why work hard and build a good life when the government can take it away so easily?" It is really sad - Argentina should be a rich and happy country, if only people had the freedom.

I don't quite understand how your "lists" work, it sounds like it is too easy to abuse - especially if there are lots of "gorillas". But I don't think compulsory voting is a bad thing - even if you feel the choice is so bad that the only honest vote you can give is a "null" vote like your brother. It is a way to say "no, these politicians aren't good enough". Do they count null votes? Is there ever a number at the end of the election that says, maybe 1,000,000 people didn't want any of these politicians?

Here in the UK we have low turnout for elections, maybe 40%, which means that we can end up with a government elected by only 20% of the voters - that's still not good, though I think the apathy here has different causes. OK, a lot of people say they don't vote as a "protest", but we never know how big the "protest" is because they look just like the people who are too lazy or apathetic to vote. Personally, I think voting should be compulsory, but only if the ballot slip also has "None of the above" as a valid voting option. Democracy is too hard won just to leave it to the zealots and the "gorillas" who have been bribed or threatened into voting for someone.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Personally, I think voting should be compulsory, but only if the ballot slip also has "None of the above" as a valid voting option.

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Seconded. Voting isn't, or at least shouldn't be, your privilege, it's your duty. Vote blank if you feel that way of course, but the least we can expect is for you to get your sorry arse down to the election house once every four years. It's not like it's too much to ask.

A lot of the apathy and politics you speak of does remind me of elections, here, though not so much the lists and blatant fraud.

I'm against compulsory voting; why should people who don't care enough to vote on their own, and so probably aren't that informed, decide based on, as the Onion so eloquently put it, total BS issues.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I'm against compulsory voting; why should people who don't care enough to vote on their own, and so probably aren't that informed, decide based on, as the Onion so eloquently put it, total BS issues.

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That would be thing #2: forcing the media to ignore all the BS.

Sadly reading your description made me think it seems to be better than my country...India :embarassed: . Voting is not mandatory though. But parties do buy votes and also use strong arm tactics :shame: the voter turn up is abt 60%. Populations in villages and smaller towns are better at voting than the better educated population in cities:juggle2: ... i wish voting was made madatory :whip: atleast to avoid illegal votes (people voting more than once and in others stead).

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I'm against compulsory voting; why should people who don't care enough to vote on their own, and so probably aren't that informed, decide based on, as the Onion so eloquently put it, total BS issues.

CR

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Sadly is worse than that CR, as I said the gorillas vote because they can only, they follow the leader with fanatism, they sell their vote for a Coke. It's not simply voting the more popular anymore, it goes beyond it. There was a time in this country, I don't know if this happened in the US, but for what I know it's improbable, there was a time when the vote was restricted, public and obligatory. On those times the bullies were something common, people didn't have any other choice than to change their votes for what the bully said or pay the price, many times with his life. If you draw a line from there up to this time on history you'll find, as me, that everything remains, in essence, the same, it just more subtle, the influencing part, instead of forcing you at gun point they just reduce your choices by destroying other parties lists.

I've never felt that famous frase to be so true as in this case: "Everyone has the country he wants." Because, you see, many people in my country are actually proud of it, it makes our country interesting and they don't want it to change, and it's not like a maffia working on small groups, I'm talking about a whole community that couldn't care less that they belong to a particular society, for various reasons, but they love the small unscrupulous and inmoral details that give life and color to the "barrios", at least that's the attitude on Buenos Aires, I reckon than on other provinces, farther from the Capital, the situation might be worse...

I really want to talk in Spanish with SoulForged about this.
Now here comes Garcilaso with a part of the truth(?)

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We've a multipartidist system

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Now, I got angry when I read this! There were, not are, political parties. The former governament manipulated everyone. The Radicals are Radicals K(irckner), so they've lost their decitions. also they are Kash :P, because they are manipulated for money for the province or city.

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Do I've to mention that a great part of that money comes out of taxes?

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Yes, sadly yes.

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I'm so dissapointed at many people here, my own brother nullified his vote (which means that you actually don't put anything inside the envelope)

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I can't vote yet, but this is not good. Sincerely, I thought when Mr. K started his gov, he could do a lot of things, but that was clearly a lie, he said he was going to reduce the rich breach. Now, look. That wasnt changed. The media is bought. They aren't talking about that, they talk about inflation, and a manipulated system to see the inflation, but media dont remark the fact that the INDEC IS MANIPULATED!

See? Our IGNORANCE its their FORTRESS. They keep us as ignorants as they can. They won't change the education. They will sell the country to foreigners.
That's why I hate Cristina. Also,

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they sell their vote for a Coke

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:no:

Its incredible how media and people like the K dinasty only finds in people source to keep themselves in power.
I love my country. I don't love the people in the power.

As I always say: Argentina in fourty years time, will grow 10 years. The fourth year they start to do a lot of things just to be elected again and staying 4 more years.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

My question for the reader would be: What do you think? Can elections like that be called democratic? Should this country restrict its vote? Just imagine that this was your country to answer the question.

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They follow the definition of "western democracy", which we've seen is very far from full, direct democracy in terms of how democratic it is. This election is yet another proof that such a system in its practical implementations often doesn't create a strong enough pressure on holders of power to improve their policies for everybody in the country, but that there's a quite huge margin for corruption among leading politicians. These days, the politicians are mostly rich, upper class - or become so very quickly. This gives a very bad representation of the population in general. The opposite is the case once such upper class policies have pressured forward a revolution, after which - for a few decades - politics are worker centered and restrict all rights for affecting what status you achieve by choosing whether to work harder or not, which removes most incentive to be productive. When the gap between the representatives and what they are to represent is smaller, a more balanced policy is the result. One of the ways in which this gap can be kept small, is by making it easy to establish new parties, but establishing new parties is incredibly difficult today, for the following reasons (among others):
- you are likely to receive murder threats. It's probably not worth this risk (for yourself, personally, in the short term) unless you earn a lot of money out of being politician, but if you do, you will too become corrupt
- you have to use your own name and can't be anonymous even during the startup phase. A lot of employers may see your involvement in politics as dangerous or risky for their companies, making it harder for you to get any job while starting your party. Unless you're rich from start, you'll have great difficulty succeeding
- you have almost no funding or capability of marketing your party. Mass media has no incentive to follow the development of parties that haven't already become strong enough to be a serious contender for power, i.e. a party that has already received over 1-5% of the votes in the previous election. Even then, you may receive little or no media attention if you're in the opposition. Without attention, you can't get your message out
- there's no pressure on any party to fulfill the promises they make before an election, and no punishment if they fail. They are often good enough rhetorics to be able to hide all such failures. make you forget them, or make them seem unimportant. If a new party that has never been in power gives similar promises, and is honest for a change, it still has no way of making the voters realize this. EVERY party promises more freedom, justice, money and health care these days. If your presented political ideology is better than theirs, they'll just steal your ideas, and present them as their promises for the next election (even if they'll break these promises).
- before you can even register your party so voters can vote at it, you often need massive amount of support, from more people than a normal human being can receive as acquaintancies in a lifetime. To create this huge number of people at first, you need to gain at least some 20-50 people among your nearest friends who ardently support your cause. Only with such a core established, can you successfully call for larger meetings and try to put together a larger party. But most people won't find 20-50 people courageous enough to start a party among their friends, especially not when the above points remain true. Only massive, often extremistic mass hysteria political movements can succeed in gaining enough people to be able to register a party. Which is why there are communist parties, environment-extremist parties, even pedophiliacs-parties, extremist-conservatives parties, extremist-socialist parties, but no common-sense parties (in the few cases where common sense parties are formed, it would be created by defectors leaving an already established extremistic party, but half-blind extremism is still required to cause the necessary stirring up of emotions needed to make them leave their old party).

What all this amounts to is that new or ideologically balanced parties can't be started easily. Similar mechanisms within the established parties prevent their leadership from becoming representative as well. The end result is that a group of people whose composition isn't representative of the population end up ruling the country. This defeats the purpose of representative democracy.

What is needed is to reestablish suitable pressures and incentives that result in the political elite becoming more representative of the country population - in all countries who call themselves democracies.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

Personally, I think voting should be compulsory, but only if the ballot slip also has "None of the above" as a valid voting option.

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I agree, this could at least in the short term keep the very unrobust system called "representative democracy" from falling apart completely.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

I've never felt that famous frase to be so true as in this case: "Everyone has the country he wants."

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Aye, and, as fittingly: 'All peoples get the government they deserve'.

Case in point:

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Because, you see, many people in my country are actually proud of it, it makes our country interesting and they don't want it to change, and it's not like a maffia working on small groups, I'm talking about a whole community that couldn't care less that they belong to a particular society, for various reasons, but they love the small unscrupulous and inmoral details that give life and color

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You mean, an inclination for 'a strong man', clientelism, patronage, a combination of love for authority and disrespect for law? Bread and circuses as the means by which the powerful gain and keep the support from their popular following? Mafia and corruption not being sub-societal means of organisation and conduct, but a continuation of normal cultural norms through unlawful means?

Welcome to Latinitude, my dear. :beam: :yes:

It's the same from Liège in the north to Palermo in the south and Buenos Aires in the west.

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Originally Posted by Garcilaso de la Vega el Inca

I really want to talk in Spanish with SoulForged about this.

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No se que va a ser de nuestro país, pero mi punto fue otro, mi punto fue that toda la gente quejándose, incluyéndome a mi, tenie una parte de la culpa en lo que pasa...

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Originally Posted by Rodion Romanovich

What is needed is to reestablish suitable pressures and incentives that result in the political elite becoming more representative of the country population - in all countries who call themselves democracies.

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Very true mate, however I wouldn't want to see many of the argentinian populace on the government, even if I know that's what is right in democracy. Many argentinians have yet to be instructed to be politically productive, our democracy is in its infancy, but grows up slowly, very slowly, if it grows at all...

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Originally Posted by Louis

You mean, an inclination for 'a strong man', clientelism, patronage, a combination of love for authority and disrespect for law? Bread and circuses as the means by which the powerful gain and keep the support from their popular following? Mafia and corruption not being sub-societal means of organisation and conduct, but a continuation of normal cultural norms through unlawful means?

Welcome to Latinitude, my dear.

It's the same from Liège in the north to Palermo in the south and Buenos Aires in the west.

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Louis, everytime I read what you post I think that you're somekind of lost philosophical stone rolling the streets of Paris, really you understand things better than many locals, I think you should seriously write a book, it will be unwise to let so much wisdom go out of the window. Sorry if that sounded too much like praising, it wasn't my intention, but I had to say it. Once again I agree with you... :bow:

Noticias(News), a local magazine, wrote an article on how they were spied by the SIDE(Argie CIA). If this was true, then no one is safe here.

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Originally Posted by Garcilaso de la Vega el Inca

Noticias(News), a local magazine, wrote an article on how they were spied by the SIDE(Argie CIA). If this was true, then no one is safe here.

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Who was spied by the SIDE? The journalists? Well considering how much work the SIDE has in a country without misteries I can safely say that it's probable...Tenés un link...

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

This country is trully on a vicious circle apathy which leads to bad governments which lead to apathy again, and I don't see a way out.

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Welcome to the club bro.:help:

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

I'll confese that I was one of those persons, not so long ago, that would have said "I'll stay always in my country and help it, before going abroad"

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An ideal thought that many of us have had, again you are not the only one who wishes a better fate to our country; a very noble cause but stupid in the end if you see the present situation.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

I don't fear for my future here, but for my families future, on some thread recently I said that I was more loyal to the community, sadly the community is not responding to anything, and I think that on the first opportunity I've to leave this country legally with my family I'll do so.

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Why legally?? If you say you want to enter to another contry legally I agree, but why do you need to leave legally, honestly if I could leave now I would legally or not, is the less I can do for this nice country, everytime you want to make something right here you end feeling like an idiot.:thumbsdown:

I think you are fooling yourself thinking we have a young democracy, we don't have a true democracy and there is the key of great part of our troubles. The vicious circle is just a circle of constants, apathy and bad governments; you want to change one constant to change the other, heck!! I wish it would work, but you must agree if it does will take several years to modify the other constant; I wish to think a good (read "no corrupt") government can do better and in less time.... if you want to create a new political party to the new elections let me know, if not I will follow your brother choice or vote the FRAL (humanist - comunist) :clown: again.

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Originally Posted by Garcilaso de la Vega el Inca

...spied by the SIDE(Argie CIA).

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I know what you meant, but the quote SIDE=Argie CIA is hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Well considering how much work the SIDE has in a country without misteries I can safely say that it's probable...

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More than probable I wold say, but you are wrong if you think we haven't mysteries... junior/Juan Castro/the hands of Peron :skull:

:yes:

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Originally Posted by Riedquat

Why legally?? If you say you want to enter to another contry legally I agree, but why do you need to leave legally, honestly if I could leave now I would legally or not, is the less I can do for this nice country, everytime you want to make something right here you end feeling like an idiot.:thumbsdown:

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Bueno otro porteño nos bendice con su presencia :2thumbsup: ¿Todo bien viejo? As for your question, I meant leaving here and then entering legally in another country.

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Originally Posted by Soulforged

Bueno otro porteño nos bendice con su presencia :2thumbsup: ¿Todo bien viejo?

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Bien no, mas bien tirando, como buen argentino ;)

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Originally Posted by Riedquat

Bien no, mas bien tirando, como buen argentino ;)

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Tirando para no aflojar, ah?

So, What is your opinion about this matter, Señor Sombras...

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Who was spied by the SIDE? The journalists? Well considering how much work the SIDE has in a country without misteries I can safely say that it's probable...Tenés un link...

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It could be, but that magacine could be an anti-K magacine. So, they could make a lot of things just to make a negative image of the K gov.

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Originally Posted by Garcilaso de la Vega el Inca

So, What is your opinion about this matter, Señor Sombras...

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Hehe, my opinion is the one nobody wants to hear about, neither me; you can't ask for more responsibility to the votants if you don't have where to choice from, and you can't expect a good government from such society. We need a cleansing, a social, political and institutional cleansing, breaking the vicious wheel with a blood depuration, a revolution.

We didn't earn our actual democracy, its like an imposed government; we need to fight to have the government we want, we changed from a dictatorship to a democracy government from a day to another, without a great crisis, the old resident institutional corruption is still there and nobody care about.

We are all guilty of our actual situation, we can't escape from that true, the more ... fair solution is try to kill the sin and the sinner in the same process; next time a policeman stop you the $10 bribe wouldn't be available anymore...

Being realist I am completely aware it will not happen in the next 50/80 years, we have lost our b@lls like society and that scare me more.

So from now on with my left hand I will support Quebracho group and with my right hand will pay the Belgrano's university for my sons.:idea2:

Having been a US voter since 1969, I support making voting mandatory here, with opt-outs available on a case-by-case basis, as in Jury Duty. I agree with HoreTore that voting is not only a privilege, it's a duty.

Argentina's "candidate/party Lists" system sounds rife with potential for fraud, coercion and corruption. If I lived there, I'd try to find a different way.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Argentina's "candidate/party Lists" system sounds rife with potential for fraud, coercion and corruption. If I lived there, I'd try to find a different way.

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A different way..... to get out of here ASAP :yes:

Remove the word "potential". Seriously, all the system work in the same way but there is a natural balance between the parties, because everybody contribute to the fraud.:thumbsdown:

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We are all guilty of our actual situation, we can't escape from that true, the more ... fair solution is try to kill the sin and the sinner in the same process; next time a policeman stop you the $10 bribe wouldn't be available anymore...

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Talking about $10 bribe, have you heard about the natives that are bribed for 10 pesos? Shamefully indeed. And no one tries to change it. Indeed, we have to change a lot.

It's compulsory voting here and elections are on weekends so no conflict with Jury Duty. If you do have a reason and you know ahead of time you can use a postal ballot vote.

You only need to turn up and get your name marked off the electoral roll. You don't need to actually vote... the thing is once people turn up they vote 99+% of the time, and since they know they will vote (first timers are always more eager) when they do turn up they tend to pay more attention to what is happening.

Also we don't use first past the post voting system... so you still can vote for a minor party and know that your vote will count.