xxxxx-ii

Couple of questions:

Pronunciation: How are Roman words pronounced tht end in ii? I Is that right, becasue I've heard it pronounced like that, but in the game Triarii is pronounced Tree-are-ee instead of Tree-are-ee-i. Not sure what the right way is.

Secondly, I went to creat a custome battle with 8 factions just to get a look at some of the other units available to different factions. I did this becasue I read in the unit description for the Macedonian body guard that they were only equalled in ability to some Eastern cavalry and some Spanish cavalry. Interested to see that Spanish cavalry were comparable, I went to custom battles to see some of these. But I couldnt find any of the units for Lusotannan. Baffled, I checked the Roman unit roster and found that none of the units availble for ingame recruiting are there either. Whats the story?

1) It wasn't uncommon to slur together the final two "i"s in words like Cornelii, Triarii, etc. However, if you pronounce them properly, it would be "Tree-are-ee-ee" (hence you can see the origin of the melding). "i" in Latin is "ee", almost always. It is not "aye", as in "pie"; that sound is taken by the diphthong "ae".

2) Some funky thing involving switching EDUs. I personally don't bother with custom games, but there are a few threads around, if you run a search, that will have your answer.

Cheers.

Thanks for that mate.

At the risk of sounding silly, whats an EDU? I could probably reason this out myself but I cant be bothered.

EDU = export_descr_unit.txt, one of the main text files to modify for customizing RTW, as it list the stats for each unit type. Another common abbreviation is EDB, which is the file describing building effects.

It seems many different cultures all over Europe have their own pronounciation of Latin.
This makes it very hard for me to learn the Classical pronounciation, as each declares their method is correct.
I have learnt to say 'e' as 'a' in every case.
I have learnt, 'i', and, 'e', as in, 'Cliche'.
However sometimes I have doubts, such as in the word;
'TIMERE', 'To fear', is this pronounced, 'Teemayray', or 'Tim'eh ray'?
Shortly I ask, are there strict unfailing rules to the pronounciation of Latin, or are their apostrophes and cheats in the Classical tongue?

There are many likenesses to that word, such as CVPERE - just a problem I knew could be cleared here in this topic!

On the subject of 'ii' I have been taught to say all words such as this as;
'EGNATII', 'Aig-naa-tee-aye'.
'NERVII', (The 'e' is tricky here), 'Near-vee-aye'.

So is this simply a different opinion on Latin, or are there certain words with this plural that are pronounced simply as ee-ee?

Lastly, to make full use of this space of enquiry, I must ask a question on the subject of the letter, 'I' itself in Latin.
Is the letter ever pronounced as the letter, 'j', or is it always a, 'y', in necessary circumstances.
My example being, 'TROIAE', which is, 'Troy', is this said as, 'Tro-yay', 'Tro-ee-yay', or is it pronounced with a, 'Jay', sound?

Thank you, if you respond, Landwalker - and any other who may answer these, 'questions three'.

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Originally Posted by Pode

EDU = export_descr_unit.txt, one of the main text files to modify for customizing RTW, as it list the stats for each unit type. Another common abbreviation is EDB, which is the file describing building effects.

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Nope. Definately wouldnt have reasoned that out myself. Thanks.

The letters have to be pronounced accordingly to their *normal* sound, that is for example i = i, not aye. After all the alphabet was ment to be for Latin (or Greek originally), and not for English. Sometimes I get the impression the English native speakers live on a (language-)planet of their own.

Glenn, your answers are here: http://www.rhapsodes.fll.vt.edu/index.php

In fact, if you listen to the Vergil recording your question to "Troiae" will be answered in the first line.

in written latin isnt a 'v' actually a 'u'? if so, whats the latin version of 'v'? does it even exist?

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Originally Posted by Long lost Caesar

in written latin isnt a 'v' actually a 'u'? if so, whats the latin version of 'v'? does it even exist?

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V in Latin is either consonantal or vowel. The vowel form is a long or short U; the consonantal is similar to W.

My Latin teacher says Latin in an Italian accent.

He is rather eccentric though:no:

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

The letters have to be pronounced accordingly to their *normal* sound, that is for example i = i, not aye. After all the alphabet was ment to be for Latin (or Greek originally), and not for English. Sometimes I get the impression the English native speakers live on a (language-)planet of their own.

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Yes, I think the problem that English speaking people have with pronouncing Latin is first of all home-made by the strange way they spell Latin letters, that is complete different to how these are spelled by most (all?) other languages that share the same alphabet.

On the other hand, I don't think that there is a real correct way to spell Latin as "the Romans" did. There was, for sure, a local slang in Latium, but allready the people in Etruria will have spelled the same words in a complete different way, leave alone the provincials in Gallia or Hispania, who had their own version of the Latin language.

I think it would be excellent if all speakers of languages that have drastically different phonetic values of chraracters compared to other languages (English speakers in particular, because they tend to think that every language is pronounced as if it were English) would simply learn the most common phonetic values placed on each letter in various languages. It shouldn't take more than a few hours at most, and Wikipedia has all the basic information needed.

Not that there's anything wrong with asking, but all these "Is Gaius pronounced um-GROOL-noo or BWURGHTHS-goat-eye" threads seem a bit weird to me, when even the most basic knowledge of European languages should be enough to reach a roughly passable pronunciation of words such as Sweboz, thureophoroi or Julii.

This wouldn't help with all languages, of course. Celtic languages in particular seem to place rather surprising phonetic values on some letters.

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Originally Posted by Kahju

This wouldn't help with all languages, of course. Celtic languages in particular seem to place rather surprising phonetic values on some letters.

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Have you yet encountered slavic languages? If not, you ain't seen nothing yet :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Lucasiewicz

Have you yet encountered slavic languages? If not, you ain't seen nothing yet :laugh4:

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Only very superficially. I haven't met anything particularly extreme though, perhaps you'd like to elaborate?

In Polish
Premyzl = Shemish

In Gaelic
Dun Laoghaire = Doon La'orrie

But then:

In french:

Archambault:

In english

bathtub

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Originally Posted by Kahju

I think it would be excellent if all speakers of languages that have drastically different phonetic values of chraracters compared to other languages (English speakers in particular, because they tend to think that every language is pronounced as if it were English) would simply learn the most common phonetic values placed on each letter in various languages. It shouldn't take more than a few hours at most, and Wikipedia has all the basic information needed.

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Not going to help a bit when different phonemes are concerned. A native English speaker can't even manage the different 'r's present in French, and that's a language that has contributed closely to modern English (as well as being closer to Latin itself).

I think the worst part of pronouncing Latin for the English is the attitude of those who use it. I remember one of my biology teachers saying that "it doesn't matter."

Edited to add- and most people work with medieval or renaissance Latin anyway. Not the classical Latin we would be concerned with here. I don't know, but I would imagine it is reasonable to see the language of medieval and enlightenment education (no-one's native tongue) to be a bit more formulaic and well, 'dead' than a language spoken by a thriving culture to express everything from its own sense of greatness to arguing over the price of a fish.

Yeah, native English speakers are all so ignorant and clueless that there is no way they could possibly ever learn another language, or learn how to pronounce any non-English word correctly. Roll/trill an R? Physically impossible for a native English speaker. Their tongues are actually different compared to all other humans. It's amazing. ~:rolleyes:

Well, don't quote me, any of you, but I heard that if you can ever get a look at the inside of one's mouth, their tongue is actually split down the middle.
Don't attempt this at all though please, unless you've handled them previously or you have great experience in dentistry and zoology.

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I would be very appreciative if it was realised here that I have never heard a sentence pronounced correctly in Latin.
I have never met anyone who knows the language in person.
I do not live within a smoke signal of a university.
If I did live within a lighthouse of one, I would not be of age, or of purse, to enrol in one.

Yet I am attempting to learn this dialect alone, with written lessons, in my own spare time, that I may pass the interest of linguistics and fulfill my own interests in the study of Classicism.

If it offends my European overlords that I dare to ask questions on correct, Classical pronounciation here then I shall say no more of Latin or any part of my personal pursuits.

I have greater support and care for all of Europe and it's many cultures than I do for my own, 'nation', of numb bastardry.
And for this reason, every hour that is not spent in pride of Classical Equitation for me, is spent in pride of Classical European history.

This is not a plea for praise, but a plea for acknowledgement and abort of insult.

Yes they are strange creatures indeed, I should know because I am one of them.

You don't need to apologize for asking how to pronounce something, Glenn. It is great that you want to know correct pronunciation, and EB is certainly filled with words that none of us have seen or heard before.

I personally think there should be a thread that lists the correct pronunciation of as many words from EB as possible. Like I said, most of us have never seen many of these words before (especially Punic, and some Celtic words).

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Originally Posted by Kahju

Not that there's anything wrong with asking, but all these "Is Gaius pronounced um-GROOL-noo or BWURGHTHS-goat-eye" threads seem a bit weird to me, when even the most basic knowledge of European languages should be enough to reach a roughly passable pronunciation of words such as Sweboz, thureophoroi or Julii.

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You're right, there isn't anything wrong with it. What you maybe didn't understand is that most people don't want a "roughly passable pronunciation", they want an "as accurate as possible" pronunciation. That's why they ask. And like you said, there's nothing wrong with it, and I would certainly encourage everyone to learn correct pronunciation for any word they aren't familiar with.

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Originally Posted by mighty_rome

Yeah, native English speakers are all so ignorant and clueless that there is no way they could possibly ever learn another language, or learn how to pronounce any non-English word correctly. Roll/trill an R? Physically impossible for a native English speaker. Their tongues are actually different compared to all other humans. It's amazing. ~:rolleyes:

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You misunderstand me.
Languages do not all use the same sounds (phonemes), and as a baby you 'tune out' the ones you don't hear from your parents/other talking people. Over time it gets harder to distinguish until you simply cannot hear them. There's lots of examples, but I thought that the English not hearing the two distinct French r (not rrrrolled, anyone who ever heard Noel Coward speak knows the English can do that) sounds was a good and suitable example because the languages have a history of influencing each other and because much of French is derived from 'rustic Latin' in what was Gaul.

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Originally Posted by mighty_rome

You're right, there isn't anything wrong with it. What you maybe didn't understand is that most people don't want a "roughly passable pronunciation", they want an "as accurate as possible" pronunciation. That's why they ask. And like you said, there's nothing wrong with it, and I would certainly encourage everyone to learn correct pronunciation for any word they aren't familiar with.

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My point is that the "guy-oos for Gaius" type pronunciation guides are almost always broad and sometimes even misleading. If people would take the little time needed to understand the very basics of phonetics and ortography, they could in most cases reach a similar or better pronunciation than they could with the guy-oos system. If someone wants to reach a pronunciation that is as accurate as is theoretically possible, they obviously need something quite a bit more advanced than the guy-oos system or the very basics of linguistics, so I don't really see what that has to do with this. My suggestion was aimed at people who don't strive to become experts in linguistics but at people who wish to be able to pronounce foreign words without sounding like rednecks. It was just a suggestion, and I apologize to whomever I may have offended.

Every language has sounds that other languages do not have. For example, I would guess that out of 10 Germans that are able to express themselves in English hardly 3 of them would be able to pronounce a correct "th".

The problem that native English speaking persons have with other languages, and that are the main reason for all those "how is it sayed" threads here is the confusion that the English languages creates with vowles:

be

beer

beat

Three ways ot write a sound that would be correct displayed in the Latin alphabet with non of these but with: "i". But that isn't also unknown to the English language, example:

is

it

with

On the other hand "i" can also be pronunced "aye" and "e" is not always "i" but also the correct "e", example

bed


So, it is clear (what should be written "clir" or pronounced "clar") that native English speaking people have difficulties to simply guess how a word is pronounced written in the alphabet they use themselves, as long as they don't know it somehow. And it becomes also clear that other people often do not understand the difficulties with that. How is Triarii pronounced? The way it is spelled: Tri-ar-i-i.