Problems with EB phalanx formation

I have found the phalanx formation in Europa Barbarorum to not be particularly useful. Even when they are attacked head on one of two things will happen, either the enemy will spill out to the sides of the formation and quickly cut down the hoplites on the flanks (even if I have infantry protecting both the right and the left), or the phalanx will become disorganized after a short period of time and lose their effectiveness. What is the best way to utilize them? Should I take them out of formation? Press alt and have them use short swords when they get in too close? Or something else?

I have no idea what the problem is. If the enemy is able to get to the flanks, you're doing it wrong. If the unit loses cohesion, again, you're doing it wrong. If you have a solid line of phalangitai with flank support, there shouldn't be a problem. The front of a phalanx isn't supposed to be impenatrable, but damned near it. I don't know why yours are losing cohesion, unless they're an inferior unit against a beast unit.

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Originally Posted by Dyabedes of Aphrodisias

I have no idea what the problem is. If the enemy is able to get to the flanks, you're doing it wrong. If the unit loses cohesion, again, you're doing it wrong. If you have a solid line of phalangitai with flank support, there shouldn't be a problem. The front of a phalanx isn't supposed to be impenatrable, but damned near it. I don't know why yours are losing cohesion, unless they're an inferior unit against a beast unit.

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Pff, my 122 inexperienced phalangitai deuteroi just chewed through 50 somatophylakes strategou (infantry version) with 3 chevrons, taking only light casualties. Anything without long spears is in trouble unless it has easy access to the flanks.

The usual situation is that during a seige I send a phalanx to try to block off a corridor, and then an enemy unit of gallic swordsmen for example attacks them. At first the phalanx holds them off perfectly but then in prolonged melee they start losing a lot of men from the sides even though it is only one unit attacking them. In the end it always just seems they aren't worth the gold it costs to recruit them.

Stretch the unit out so it fills the whole street. Works for me, mostly.

Tip: play some custom battles. There you can experiment and learn from faults. T'is better to loose and learn there than in the campaign.

remember to have the guard mode on

Phalanxes aren't the best units for street fights, because of the problem you have mentioned: it is difficult to protect their flanks with mobile units.

I find phalanxes utterly impenetrable from the front. I usually deploy them in a very long line, even if i have to weaken the phalanx by spreading it out I will still match the enemy line's length whenever possible. Then I support the phalanx with missile troops, and attack the enemy's flanks/rear with cavalry and mobile infantry. The only time I eve have my phalanx running into trouble is when they face enemy phalanxes, otherwise even elite units seem to end up decimated without having achieved anything. Phalanxes are uber.

Maybe you're using Iphikratean hoplites, though--these are alot less good because they have shorter spears, and what makes phalanxes so strong in the R:TW engine is that they hold the enemy at spear-length. Also, never attack Macedonian-style phalangitai with Iphikratean hoplites, or other short-spear phalanxes. All other units will fare better.

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Originally Posted by konny

Phalanxes aren't the best units for street fights, because of the problem you have mentioned: it is difficult to protect their flanks with mobile units.

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I cannot share this experience, quite the opposite: if you spread the phalanxes in a way that their flanks "touch" the buildings, they'll do a real good job in cities, especially when supported by archers/slingers.

Most "avenues" are not that large, and IMHO perfect for such a tactics.

But phalanxes are very vulnerable once the are through the gate and on their way to the avenue. That's why I usually don't send them in first. I'd guess that's what konny meant.

Yours, T.

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Originally Posted by Treverer

I cannot share this experience, quite the opposite: if you spread the phalanxes in a way that their flanks "touch" the buildings, they'll do a real good job in cities, especially when supported by archers/slingers.

Most "avenues" are not that large, and IMHO perfect for such a tactics.

But phalanxes are very vulnerable once the are through the gate and on their way to the avenue. That's why I usually don't send them in first. I'd guess that's what konny meant.

Yours, T.

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Actually I make my phalanx narrow (the length of the gate) and send them partially through the gate...so they still keep their sarissa formation while engaging the enemy at the gate.

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Originally Posted by Intranetusa

Actually I make my phalanx narrow (the length of the gate) and send them partially through the gate...so they still keep their sarissa formation while engaging the enemy at the gate.

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Thanks for that idea, I'll be testing it ...

Ah, one is never too old to learn more!

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Originally Posted by Treverer

Thanks for that idea, I'll be testing it ...

Ah, one is never too old to learn more!

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Also, I line up my skirmishers/every unit with javelins at the walls/gate (has to be wooden) and pummel the enemy on the other side until my units run out of ammo. But you probably already knew that...

:-)

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Originally Posted by Treverer

I cannot share this experience, quite the opposite: if you spread the phalanxes in a way that their flanks "touch" the buildings, they'll do a real good job in cities, especially when supported by archers/slingers.

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I am usually the attacker with a non-phalanx faction against a phalanx faction (I don't play the Hellenic so much). From that experince I find it is always possible to get around, or better: into, the flanks of these units in streetfights while the defender has problems to get any flank protection foreward.

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Originally Posted by konny

I am usually the attacker with a non-phalanx faction against a phalanx faction (I don't play the Hellenic so much). From that experince I find it is always possible to get around, or better: into, the flanks of these units in streetfights while the defender has problems to get any flank protection foreward.

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The AI doesn't seem to be as clever when it comes to flanking the phalanxes. I usually do fine with them in cities, although taking the gate is risky.

Could it be that most of my problems were because of the fact that I was using levy hoplites usually of the short spear variety?

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Originally Posted by Diamondj

Could it be that most of my problems were because of the fact that I was using levy hoplites usually of the short spear variety?

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If they have short spears then they don't have the phalanx formation in-game and then the battle is like any fight between standard infantry.

If you're referring to hoplitai haploi, then those guys really aren't very good at all. They should get beaten by most types of heavy infantry.

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Originally Posted by Sakkura

The AI doesn't seem to be as clever when it comes to flanking the phalanxes. I usually do fine with them in cities, although taking the gate is risky.

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Yes, for the gate a heavy non-phalanx unit is better (if available), because for the attack it is better to give the Phalanx a movement destination behind the enemy formation than order them to attack the enemy. In gates they often end up as swordfighter used in this way. My favourites for this job are Samnite Miltes, Germanic or Greek bodyguards and naked fanatics. On the other hand, most of the Phalanxis aren't the worst units with the sword.

Well, I'd say the best unit for the gates are elephantes. But, unfortunately, they've also two cons:

1. Upkeep: :jawdrop:

2. Amok: :oops:

Apart from these, they are fine, as they can

1. break the gate: :wall:

2. fire at the units being afraid: :brakelamp:

Tindanotae and Galatian Shortswordmen (the later only at the beginning of the game, though. Later they're not "good enough") are also doing a fine job at the gates.

Yours, T.

To the OP:

Yes what ur describing DOES tend to happen. The phalanx is formed but because they are not in a straight line, so the one of the edges tends have fewer guys. ALSO, as the battle progresses the enemy might kill the few guys or the banner guys on the edges and start "leaking" through the side of ur phalanx and the building.

The best way to avoid this is:
1-get higher quality phalangites, so they don't suck at hand to hand.
2-send ur general/cavarly around the city and hit the enemy from behind.
3-line up spear infantry in a LONG & thing column, have HOLD on, and carefully insert them on the gap between the wall and the phalanxes.
4-Have a Gaesatae behind ur phalanxes. They will scare the enemy and will rout earlier. (just ask madmatg or gauis :laugh4: )

As far as city defense goes, a Tactic I employ from time to time is the "overlapping phalanx" tactic. I put a phalanx unit behind the gate or at another choke point, and spead the unit as far as possible while still maintaining the maximum number of rows that can use their pikes (usually five rows deep). Then, I get a second phalanx and position them right behind the first, again spread as far as maximum offensive capability allows. This way, the pikes of the second phalanx are protruding into the formation of the first phalanx, creating an utterly unbreakable wall so long as it isn't flanked. If the enemy gets through the first "field" of pikes and into melee range of the first pikemen, they get into the range of the second pike "field." Even if the first units formation collapses, all the fighting still takes place in range of the second units pikes. This is useful mainly when theres nowhere to run and you have to hold off a huge enemy force use units have alot of mass to them, like cataphracts or super heavy infantry. I know it's bailed me out in a few tight spots when no other plan would have worked.

If you really need to hold a city with wooden/palisade walls, deploy your phalanxes so that they're almost touching the walls. Turn on phalanx formation and their spears will poke through the walls/gate and kill any enemy trying to ram them (and will normally prevent the ram from even damaging the wall/gate).

AI exploits, ftw.

i have been fiddling with this for a while.

flank support is the way to go (as it should be)

example:

i put a unit of argrypisdai (or whichever is the uber heavy seleukid phalanx) and i controlled a unit of principes, and a unit of cheap celtic swordsmen.

principes engage and immediately lose 10 men, and are losing men fast. by the time my celts have circled around, my principes are on the verge of breaking.

my celts (again, cheap, unarmoured i believe) charge, and the battle is slowed.

i end up winning the day.