Strange triarii moment

Assaulting Massilia, I had a strange experience with my Camillan triarii. Two units of them, each with 2 silver chevrons, went onto the walls from siege towers. The Greek defenders were placed on other parts of the wall, so the triarii went right at them, soon smashing into two units of massiliotai hoplitai with just one bronze chevron. I had great confidence in my veteran triarii, but then something strange happened. The triarii weren't winning. The fight stayed very close, but in the end it was my triarii that were destroyed to the last man, although there were only very few of the defending hoplites alive.

How is that outcome possible? I was so surprised I went to take a look at the stats, and the massaliotai (who were using their spears) have the same lethality and mass, so the huge difference in defense and attack should have made the difference for my triarii. I don't get it :shrug:

Were the defenders led by a better general than yours?
Were you playing on hard/very hard difficulty?
Were your triarii tired?
Did they do something obviosuly retarded, such as a few of them going forwards to fight the entire enemy force, while the rest of them hung back and watched?

I play on medium battle difficulty, and my triarii were fresh just like their opponents. The fight was pretty regular, a big pileup that looked quite normal for a wall fight.

My general had two stars and a few morale boosting traits, while the AI general had about a handful stars IIRC.

IIRC there are attack bonii from general stars. Maybe you just ran out of luck though; or maybe the Massilians actually had one gold chevron, I know with some of EB's factional interfaces they look more like bronze than the actual "bronze" chevrons.

It was bronze :beam:
Otherwise their stats would have been pumped up, but they were still at 11 attack / 25 defense, against the triarii with 21 attack / 31 defense.
Their general must have been a true genius. I'm still amazed I didn't easily win that part of the battle.

That lethality .225 Celtic longsword the Massilian hoplites have might of also have contributed.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

That lethality .225 Celtic longsword the Massilian hoplites have might of also have contributed.

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He said they were fighting with their spears...

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Originally Posted by Watchman

That lethality .225 Celtic longsword the Massilian hoplites have might of also have contributed.

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They were using the spear. Unless they can camouflage their swords as spears :sweatdrop:

In that case I guess I'll have to be more careful against Massilian hoplites in the future. That lethality is potentially very nasty :skull:

IIRC the Massilians share a model with the Hypaspistai and such; that puts their sword into the primary slot AFAIK. As the AI has some major issues regarding "double armed" units, they shouldn't be changing to spears unless they get knocked down and stand up, at which point that pesky "weapon swap" issue brings out the secondary weapon...

Still, I'll give you that the sheer stat disparity ought to have rendered the lethality advantage somewhat superfluous.

Mind you, the Massilians also have some two points more armour than they should given that they don't actually wear greaves like regular Hoplitai.

Also, remember that the defenders on walls seem to get some sort of hidden bonus.

I played the battle again, since I didn't have any good screenshots showing the Massilians. Here's a shot of them marching into battle, with their spears ready. They used the spears in the fight constantly, as far as I could tell.

https://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4090/0001ww4.th.jpg

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

Also, remember that the defenders on walls seem to get some sort of hidden bonus.

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Ah, thanks, that definitely could explain things. It's not every day you run into Massaliotai hoplitai, so I was quite surprised.

I think that having your generals sphere of influence around your men make them better too. I always have my leading standing around the bottom of the walls near by. I've tested and it definitely helps. Also remember that stats means nothing when your guys fall off the walls. Plus if your unit was taken from two sides (ending up in the middle of the enemy unit for example) there probably would have been much back stabbing going on.

There is nothing special with the Massilian Hoplites in terms of combat ability. I came across a number of them in my war with the Arverni (the AI is very hellenophil when it comes to raising units) and they as good or bad as one would expect from a unit given that equipement. So, yes, you should be able to beat them with Triarii.

May it was the guard mode? I had some suprising successes with Hoplitai Haploi in guard mode on walls.

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Originally Posted by konny

There is nothing special with the Massilian Hoplites in terms of combat ability. I came across a number of them in my war with the Arverni (the AI is very hellenophil when it comes to raising units) and they as good or bad as one would expect from a unit given that equipement. So, yes, you should be able to beat them with Triarii.

May it was the guard mode? I had some suprising successes with Hoplitai Haploi in guard mode on walls.

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Yeah their stats don't seem that special on paper. I don't think I've met them before which is why I wondered if it was a fluke or they were supposed to be that strong. Might make me go back to my KH game and go west :beam:

I took them out on the retry by sneaking some slingers onto the wall. They didn't like that.

The reason the AI is so hellenophile in recruitment has probably got something to do with the fact that there are many Hellenic Mercs. (Massaliotes are Mercs as well.)

The Massilians are tough. I attacked with a full stack of veterans and I had my a@# handed too me. My general and his 2 units of calvary survived by the luck of the gods. I have found that city had some veteran units also and in r/l if one is attacking an enemy who is dug in he can expect high casualties even if he wins. :sweatdrop:

Its the wall bonus defenders get. nothing more.

You should look at the "help assaulting stone walls" thread, some of those techniques might help in defeating these fiendish Hellenes.

Make sure you put the city to the sword if they take too many of your men.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

The reason the AI is so hellenophile in recruitment has probably got something to do with the fact that there are many Hellenic Mercs. (Massaliotes are Mercs as well.)

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I am playing on M, so no mercs for the AI.

That is something I see in every campaign: as soon as the AI can get its hands on the Greeks (Gaulls in Massila, Karthagians in Messana/Syracusae or Romans in Taras) it makes them the backbone of its armies. I had several full stacks of Arverni Massilotes, Celto-Hellenic Spearmen, Hoplitai Haploi and Pisoli.

Now against the Romans, the enemy armies are made up of around 1/4 to 1/3 Greeks (mainly Haploi and Akontistai), even though they can get them in Taras only, what is far away from the front.


I don't mind. I am so fond of the classical hoplite myself that raise hughe numbers of them with every faction as soon as can get them.

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Originally Posted by Sakkura

They were using the spear. Unless they can camouflage their swords as spears :sweatdrop:

In that case I guess I'll have to be more careful against Massilian hoplites in the future. That lethality is potentially very nasty :skull:

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^That's strange...I usually use my Massililian hoplite mercs as fodder cuz they're not as good as my main units... :/