KOTRfix Poll

Lost track of all changes, but those are the majority for 1.29 to 1.3:
- Fixed NightBattleCapable (I made an error with it in 1.29)
- Fixed a wealth of trait descriptors
- Fixed several ancillary icons to show something more suitable
- Added more triggers for some less used traits
- Adjusted chances of obtaining several traits
- Made it more difficult for muslim nations to gain certain vices and virtues (for religious reasons, I guess)
- Changed a few traits effects (for example Arse and Girls now also decrease piety somewhat at higher levels)
- Made the Disciplinarian line of traits more available via construction of certain buildings
- Reduced the amount of loyalty gained/lost from Content/DiscontentGeneral from 1/3/5 to 1/2/3
- Added triggers for random_birth_turkey
- Changed the Jihad trait line for muslim nations slightly (for arriving at crusade region)
- Changed the way VictorVirtue is awarded (Now given when actually taking a city rather than after a siege battle with certain factors - siege battles are unreliable in that it can be siege sally too and sometimes it is not judged as siege if attacked by a reinforcing army, thus not giving points towards this trait)
- Added more princess trait triggers and lowered some chances of previous triggers.
- Made many changes to the way battles give command and dread/chiv traits.
- Fixed a CA oversight regarding black_stallion ancillary
- Fixed a few triggers for TourneyKnight and HorseRacer
- Made nun ancillary obtainable from a successful denouncement mission rather than from building an abbey (which already gives deacon)


Please try to cast your vote within the next 72 or so hours

I'm happy with it, although I cannot get it to work on my PC. I tried what you said a while back but the cities changed and so did the models of the generals, I think it is because I have Stainless Steel installed.

In this case you'd want to put either of the mods in a separate modding folder. PM me for more info if you need.

I would like to know exactly what the changes were for the following:

- Added more triggers for some less used traits
- Adjusted chances of obtaining several traits
- Changed a few traits effects (for example Arse and Girls now also decrease piety somewhat at higher levels)
- Made many changes to the way battles give command and dread/chiv traits.
- Fixed a few triggers for TourneyKnight and HorseRacer

I'd like to know how 10 dread can give the epithet "The Inspiring". Otherwise, looks good :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warmaster Horus

I'd like to know how 10 dread can give the epithet "The Inspiring". Otherwise, looks good :2thumbsup:

---

I would be more interested in how it used to give "The Saint". :laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TinCow

I would like to know exactly what the changes were for the following:

- Added more triggers for some less used traits
- Adjusted chances of obtaining several traits
- Changed a few traits effects (for example Arse and Girls now also decrease piety somewhat at higher levels)
- Made many changes to the way battles give command and dread/chiv traits.
- Fixed a few triggers for TourneyKnight and HorseRacer

---

TourneyKnight previously was given at a very low chance when you ended your turn in a castle, similarly to HorseRacer. They can now also be gotten when you complete the related building. For TourneyKnight, the additional prereq for getting it when completing the building is no not be dreadful (as the trait gives chivalry)

Command/dread/chiv postbattle triggers were adjusted for chance and prereqs. I could post the entire code, but it would possibly spoil the gaming fun and make players powergame their characters to gain certain traits (outside of the well known heroic victory conditions). If you really want to know the actual code for that, it would be best via PM.

Arse and Girls decrease piety by 1-3 on the highest levels, as they go against all the religious teachings of the time. Similarly how StrongLanguage by default reduces piety.

Triggers were added for TourneyKnight, HorseRacer, Disciplinarian, and several princess traits.

Chances of obtaining traits. Basically all of the above are part of this. Most changes to the trait file in general is to adjust chances of obtaining a given trait given a condition. The largest chance change was probably for some heroic victory conditions (realized an error where some clear victories gave more points than a heroic) and that InspiringSpeaker has a lower base chance for the first level.


Dread 10 and Inspiring: As PK said, would you rather Arnold be called "the Saint" as CA intended? :grin2:

Sure. Saint Arnold, patron saint of the dreadful, and scary. Has a certain ring to it, no? :grin:

Is Battle Dread still too easy to get? I did my best to RP Jan's "cruel and cunning" but it was a little annoying that I did not really have a choice with going down the battle dread path. Currently it has to do with the force ratio and we don't have much control over how many forces we attack or defend the AI with. Basically, if I attack, have more men than the enemy, and get my general in any combat, then I get battle dread points. And it is very hard to get out of once down it.

Also, would you consider disabling "hesitant attacker"? Chancellors and GM's use the "recon by force" method for checking stacks and then save the game. They attack a stack, make note of the make up, and then withdraw. This gives our avatars "hesitant" points that eventually add up. Jan temporarily got the "hesitant attacker" trait and I was annoyed because it was something done OOC by a third party instead of caused IC or by my actions.

BattleChivalry is a lot easier to get now and BattleDread a bit tougher in balance. I played with the pre-reqs somewhat and also made special cases for siege scenarios, so thsoe won't be pure Dread traps. As many of you also know, you need to have 2 points in either trait to be set on that path and can still change if you only have 1 point. In vanilla, the first point sets the path.
This of course also leads to battles where post battle you get some 3-4 messages each saying gained battledread, lost battledread, gained battlechiv, lost battlechiv or so.

IndecisiveAttacker: Yes, it has been a problem in the past (ask Dutch_Guy). What I have told econ and TC about when they used to run the game, was to not attack and withdraw prebattle or if they do so, at least not save afterwards. I think they have kept to it, since there has not been a battle (I have been involved in anyway) where my character was already placed right next to the enemy stack.

In general, its good practice for a chancellor/GM to not place players next to the stack they are to attack but have them make that move, thus making sure they don't pick up IndecisiveAttacker out of nowhere. Still, its a lot tougher to get in KOTRfix than in vanilla, which is good I think. This particular trait is for SP mainly anyway so people have some penalty if they attack just to check the enemy composition and then send in reinforcements or withdraw completely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Command/dread/chiv postbattle triggers were adjusted for chance and prereqs. I could post the entire code, but it would possibly spoil the gaming fun and make players powergame their characters to gain certain traits (outside of the well known heroic victory conditions). If you really want to know the actual code for that, it would be best via PM.

...

Chances of obtaining traits. Basically all of the above are part of this. Most changes to the trait file in general is to adjust chances of obtaining a given trait given a condition. The largest chance change was probably for some heroic victory conditions (realized an error where some clear victories gave more points than a heroic) and that InspiringSpeaker has a lower base chance for the first level.

---

This is the part I really think we need to have out in the open. You are adjusting when the rest of us get chivalry, command, and dread based on your own opinion of what constitutes a proper qualification. As it stands now, I don't think anyone has difficulty becoming dreaded, chivalrous, or high in command. They simply need to commit well-known acts (occupy vs. exterminate, release vs. execute, win lots of battles) to move up or down the scale that we are all familiar with. If you are planning on changing this, you need to tell us exactly what is changing so we can vote on whether or not we agree with it.

To be fair, what you mention is strategychiv/dread TC and generally GoodCommander, which are fairly obvious. Your concern is well justified however, and I'll explain some more:

The things changed are Battlechiv/dread, which are a lot more complicated. In general, people think that letting the enemy go nets them chivalry. Well, that is the idea, but previously, hardly the case. I've been experimenting with the values a lot and also considered that the average player would have to kill at least a certain percentage to even be able to win a battle (which again is a pre-req) and thus get Battlchiv.

That in mind, you can now kill a considerable portion of the enemy force and still get chiv as long as you don't kill all. Also, as a note aside, capturing prisoners does not count towards the kill percentage it seems, which is quite beneficial. Of course this also means that it is difficult to balance, as its nearly impossible to kill all enemies (you usually tend to capture a lot after killing a bunch) unless you use heavy missiles.
That in mind, chivalry is now easier to obtain especially if you fight battles with difficult odds (less than 1:1) and dread more if you have overwhelming odds (like higher than 2:1 for instance). Its not perfect, but there is some leeway especially with the system of needing 2 points to be set, and generally I was quite happy with the way it worked in my SP campaign testing.

My two cents I don't mind the "fixes". I just like to know what is being fixed added or taken away before it is implemented. If it is keeping a balance to the game then I am all for it. I like what has been done already and it is greatly appreciated.

How long is a piece of string?

That answer is the one to this question.

It's opnion and everyone has one. FH is modifying the game...and at this point with so many additions and version's I'd say we are done. It's clear that FH has a massive amount of knowledge and can continue with fixes until the end of time.

At some point we should freeze it until such time as there is a real BUG that has been found.

I have gone through the stuff again and made sure its bugfree and also for several hours read through every single string in the trait description file for grammar, spelling, and sense as well as titles. I'll do ancillary proofreading tomorrow (or rather today in a few hours) and then it should be ready for upload more or less.

I'm thinking this may well be the final version for a long time, so if you got any last minute things you want to see added or considered, let me know here or via PM.

Also, there's 7 or so people with exception of myself who have not yet voted. Please do so before sunday evening GMT, so I can tally the final count.

Facionheir, I've noticed a problem with 1.29. There's trigger for 'badsiegedefender' where general has a 60% of gaining one point if he stays behind enemy walls.

This means that a general must sally immediately upon being sieged to avoid getting 'badsiegedefender'. Since the AI rarely assauls the walls immediately, if a general chooses to wait and repel the assault the net result will often be to make him worse at defending cities.

Players shoult not be penalized for having certain styles. This is like giving a general a building point penalty for building more siege engines.

That is a tough point to be honest.
The initial trigger was giving that trait when you lose as defender in a siege battle. Well, when you lose, you are always dead, so that didn't really do much at all.

In an effort to implement this trait, I read through the descriptions some more and it seems to imply (i.e. from "Cowers behind walls") that this could be given for not sallying instead. Note that this is a 60% chance and that it takes 2 points to get the trait in the first place (and even then it will reduce GoodSiegeDefender before it can even give you BadSiegeDefender, i.e. needs 4 points minimum), so if you are lucky, you can wait a long time till you even pick the trait up.

Also, if you are assaulted in your settlement and win (which against the AI tends to be terribly easy) you get a 100% chance for GoodSiegeDefender which has a threshold of only 1 and will immediately cancel a point of BadSiegeDefender.
See it as a balance for giving GoodSiegeDefender only if you don't wait too long for the AI to attack you.

In 1.3, there was a slight change to the trigger that it only applies to characters that are at least "Brave".

Well, how about getting two points of goodsiegedefender for a successful siege? I just don't like a net gain of one point in badsiegedefender because of waiting for the enemy.

The problem with giving two points of GoodSiegeDefender is that if you are attacked immediately and win, you get 2 points rather than one. The current script system is very limited in terms of what you can and cannot do. I found the above the best balance that could be struck without leaving traits out completely.

Besides, the AI always attacks you within 2 turns (i.e. you ending turn twice) of starting a siege if it isn't completely outnumbered unless it is a cavalry only force, so you normally (i.e. in most cases) won't even get 1 point of BadSiegeDefender if you wait that long and will still get the point of GoodSiegeDefender if you win the battle, giving you a net of +1.

See it this way: What would your fellow soldiers and citizens think if you had a decent force within the walls and communication to the outside world but refused to sally forth and instead wait and let them starve to death or be killed by disease? They certainly would not think as highly of you, thus reducing your command rating ever so slightly when defending against a siege (i.e. lower morale).

There's a 2/3 majority to update the game, so let's do that.

I'm closing this thread as I think it is the only way I can close the poll. Discussion can continue in the OOC thread.