Re: pontic elite infantry
They do get some respectable heavy cav, you just have to go to Persia to get them--the mighty Khuveshahvagan!
I think you also get Lonchophoroi, if you overrun sufficiently Hellenised provinces. But yes, I agree with you--where's Pontos' heavy cav?
Re: pontic elite infantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarkiss
im talking about "imitation legionaries" not elite phalanx.
their description says it is influenced by Romans infantry type, but i got them way before Polibian reform happened in Rome and i wasnt building military oriented infrastructure either.
Yes, the same is for the Thorakitai who are said to have been influenced by the Romans too. A reform could trigger like that of the Kataphrakts, by actually fighting Romans.
On the other hand, for the Pontic heavy infantry, I would say that a faction next to Galatia would not need the Romans to come up with the idea of using chain mail, longswords and Thureos style shields.
Re: pontic elite infantry
No the thorakitai and theurphoroi were independent of Romans, it says so in the description. They were just smilliar to Romans, is all.
Re: pontic elite infantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharnakes
No the thorakitai and theurphoroi were independent of Romans, it says so in the description. They were just smilliar to Romans, is all.
....
Quote:
The Thorakitai represent the second evolution of the concept of the Theurophoroi, and show definite influence by the Romaioi in their implementation
Re: pontic elite infantry
In that case, why, in other areas of eb, are people always emphasing how they are not imitation legionaries.
Also how would baktria of all places be influnced by roman military?
Thr romans never got further east than the persian gulf, and that was only for 20 years or so, and 200 years after the baktrians collpased.
Re: pontic elite infantry
The regular Thorakitai aren't as influenced by the Romans as the Pontikoi Thorakitai are. The confusion obviously arises from the fact that the word Thorakites basically means 'heavily armoured guy' - it doesn't quite specify how heavy armoured the guy has to be. (It could've been the full Cataphract style, it could've been a muiscle cuirass, it could've been heavy chain mail etc. etc.)
In any case the spearmen's version seems to have borrowed a good deal of logistic/command chain inspiration of the Romans; but in its fighting styles, equipment and roles it remained a predominantly Hellenic unit, with some Galatian influences mixed in. It is noteworthy that the unit seems to have originated at roughly the same time the heavy versions of the Qarthadastim did, but for different purposes.
The Pontikoi Thorakitai on the other hand are pretty much imitation legionaries with a Pontic twist.
Re: pontic elite infantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
The Pontikoi Thorakitai on the other hand are pretty much imitation legionaries with a Pontic twist.
these are the guys i was reffering to.
but for me they appear way before the Romans reformed.
is it just me? i do not blitz if you wander.
Re: pontic elite infantry
Like konny said, Galatian neighbors could have influenced Pontos enough for such a unit. Their description says that they are not necessarily are result of contact with Romans.
Re: pontic elite infantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meothar
Like konny said, Galatian neighbors could have influenced Pontos enough for such a unit. Their description says that they are not necessarily are result of contact with Romans.
wasnt it regular Thorakitai who "derived" from the Galatians?
anyhow, im a Pontic fan boy and hope that something interesting will also be implimented in EBII
Re: pontic elite infantry
While we are on the subject, I have found that there is very little elite about them. In battles, where I have used them as hammers against my phalanx anvils, they suffer horribly against anything but low grade enemy infantry. They are very fragile and hardly qualify as elite troops in my opinion (and experience).
Re: pontic elite infantry
I would like to echo the last post. I find the Pontic Thorakitai to be very fragile and completely unfit for either holding the line or flanking. Are they perhaps intended to be this way? Was the Pontic infantry quite undependable? Fortunately Pontus can recruit the excellent galatian infantry.
TM
Re: pontic elite infantry
I think someone messed up with there stats in general . I gave them like an extra + 4 armor , defense and shield (spread out.) Help hella better .
Re: pontic elite infantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by TunaMaker
I would like to echo the last post. I find the Pontic Thorakitai to be very fragile and completely unfit for either holding the line or flanking. Are they perhaps intended to be this way? Was the Pontic infantry quite undependable? Fortunately Pontus can recruit the excellent galatian infantry.
TM
I agree,
1) I wish Pontic Thorakitai had 100 men per unit. This I would be ok with, I don't expect a mobile heavyhitter - i expect a unit with the flexibility and characteristics of the roman legions but obviously with lesser stats. AFAIK historically, mithridates used a lot of these troops. In EB, there is no reason to use these troops when the hellenic medium phalanx and chalkaspides are available to recruit.
2)What about the galatian infantry do you find excellent? galatian shortswordsmen are good as a beginner, early unit but are quickly outclassed by any of the other regionals, that arent even hard to get - hoplites especially, or your own thureuphoroi.
YOu then get to galatian spearmen, who are themselves worse than the galatian shortswordsmen but cost more.
Then the celto-hellenic infantry, which are decent I suppose in their own right, but only if you are really poor - hoplites, thereuphoroi especially majorly outclass them.
Galatian heavy spearman, are fatally flawed (see my topics on their sword/spear usage and setup...), and are outclassed by thereuphoroi and hoplites again in all their duties as "heavy spearmen".
And don't get me started on how inferior the galatian cavalry line is to anything in the area, funny how the heavy galatian cavalry costs a ton but fails to deliver compared to cheaper, often better quality eastern cavalry alternatives.
galatian tindanotae are actually the only excellent celtic troops but using any more than 2 of them is very discouraged (unless you're on VH).
I would really like to see at least the southern gallic swordsmen available, as these would really give your own troops and the regionals a run for their money. Or maybe, a new galatian unique unit with greek characteristics but for the most part, celtic, and would be at least as good the galatian heavy spearmen in stats.
This post is by no way meant to complain, just some thoughts on pontos balance. Thanks, and please let me know if my ideas are flawed.
Re: pontic elite infantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurakshun
Galatian heavy spearman, are fatally flawed (see my topics on their sword/spear usage and setup...), and are outclassed by thereuphoroi and hoplites again in all their duties as "heavy spearmen".
I don't agree at all. In my Pontic campaign these Galatians are no1 enemy general killer and stand their ground against every other unit (including enemy naked fanatics and spartan hoplites). Perhaps you just don't use them the right way?
Pontic 'elite' infantry is indeed not strong enough, their stats are worse than Polybian Hastati (are they considered as elite, too?).
Well, I think there are some minor balance issues concerning sword infantry (like there is NO reason to recruit Elite African Infantry instead of Iberian Assault Infantry) , but nothing that ruins your campaigns.
Re: pontic elite infantry
I agree that calling them "elite" is pushing it a bit, compared to the assorted troops with "Agema" in the name I've been fighting on the way to the Nile.
Still, they do seem reasonably tough. I haven't found them "fragile" as other people said. They don't take a lot of missile damage thanks to decent armour, and they won't rout before reinforcements arrive if they're hit by Hetairoi.
In particular, they give you a sword option in the very spear-centric Pontic army. They're pretty good for moving siege gear to a wall under missile fire then fighting whatever's on top. They're also good for flanking whatever infantry your cheap Pantadapoi phalanx has pinned then killing it steadily; they won't rout it like a cavalry charge but early routs are not always desirable (they might get away).
For what they cost, they seem half-decent. But they don't fight (or cost) like a real elite, they seem more like an upgrade to the Galatian Shortswordsmen. "Pontic Heavy Infantry" would probably be a fairer name.
The big problem I have with them is the extremely small recruiting zone, by the time you get the level 4 MIC (30 turns of MIC building, more if you want the blacksmith and morale/experience boosters) your battle front may be a couple of years away. And there doesn't seem to be anything fundamentally Pontic about them; I don't see why they couldn't have recruited them in e.g. Antiocheia or Alexandreia if they'd conquered those places and decided to spend the time/money on infrastructure.
Re: pontic elite infantry
Heavy Infantry would probably be a better name than elite infantry. They are not really meant to represent an elite like the ptolemaic agema or mak hypaspistai.
Re: pontic elite infantry
Their stats are definately messed up. They are less protected than Thureophoroi (although graphically they're shown as having the standard Thorakitai set-up in Pontic styles), and they have a low attack with their shortsword which has crap lethality. They're weaker than Thureophoroi against infantry and much, much weaker against cavalry. In short, they suck.
Re: pontic elite infantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by paullus
Heavy Infantry would probably be a better name than elite infantry. They are not really meant to represent an elite like the ptolemaic agema or mak hypaspistai.
thanks. that would leave Pontus with only elite unit of macedonian style pikemen though. rather odd allience, is it not?
Re: pontic elite infantry
Quote:
Originally Posted by CirdanDharix
Their stats are definately messed up. They are less protected than Thureophoroi (although graphically they're shown as having the standard Thorakitai set-up in Pontic styles)...
Eh, not really. If you take a closer look you'll note they lack greaves, and the helmet doesn't have cheekpieces - minor add-ons worth a merry 3 armour points total. Their armour and shield values are very much WYSIWYG correct.
That they should perhaps be statted otherwise as grade higher troops is another issue, but at the moment they're essentially the Pontic version of those Armenian armoured shortswordsmen.
