About respect on this forum. An answer to The Persian Cataphract.

First of all. Since I registered on this forum I have often seen people focused more on offending others than on arguing their own ideas. Some of us tend to forget quite often that they communicate with an actual person, not with an image, not with a nickname.The lack of respect on this forum is very often the result of some people not reading all the posts of a person and this time I am the victim. As I consider myself moral person with strong principles and I always try to be polite, even when offended, I demand the right to respond and I demand an apology. This time, I was offended, for the first time, and I would add sadly, by a person for whom I have great respect, The Persian Cataphract. I will add here the entire quote of The Persian Cataphract, followed by my explanations:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Burakuku
"I think he was cloned. Hitler that is. And now he's just a boy. Think about an iranian or greek Hitler. Now wouldn't that be strange? Or even a romanian Hitler. Damn, that would be strange. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract
"Iranians and Greek damped the soils of their homelands for over a thousand years. No other rivals in the history of this world have fought against each one and another so intensively. Greeks had their triumphs. So did the Iranians. Both had their moments of humiliation. In that war, spanning more than a milennium, projected from the early days of the Medeans and the Greek-influenced Mermnads of Lydia, through the heyday of the Greek city-states against the Achaemenians, through Alexander and Darius of the Codomannus, through the dust of the Parthians and the successors of Seleucus and Diodotus, through the open fields of dead legions and slain cataphracts, and finally the last Persian-Byzantine wars, no victor emerged. Only the screams of men, women and children who only heard legends and myths of previous achievements. Greeks at this stage had the Alexandrian and Roman opulence as the dim light to pave their future, while Iranians longed for the days when the Achaemenians ruled the world. Only a few moments past the last drops of shed blood, was there a brief moment of reconciliation, and the most unlikely enemy helped to trigger this sudden moment of mutual dependency.

There may be Greek and Iranian nationalists today, true, but these nationalists live in two very different cultural spheres also. Greek nationalists live in a country today honed as the founder of democracy and western philosophy. Such men are looked down upon, as a reminder of fascism that cost Europe millions, upon millions of lives. In Iran, my esteemed gentlemen, the situation is different. I do not excuse the behaviour of Kambiz. I know him. He is a passionate and enthusiastic young man, far more curious than the bulk of his countrymen, and a lover of Europa Barbarorum. Most Iranians do not even know who the Pahlavân were. Those who do, shrug them away as Scythic barbarian invaders. Kambiz fails to understand a few very elementary things of historiography, true, he displays a shameless behaviour that may downrightly tarnish my reputation as an Iranian in this team. I will not make any excuses for him. He suffers from misconceptions of Seleucids that still plagues Iranology, and he suffers from preconceived notions about the Parthians. True. It's all very true.

But I'd rather have him nationalistic than the bulk of my countrymen who through their inaction support a regime who proactively seeks to accomplish what the invading muslims failed after the last documented destruction of literati. To Iranians, nationalism is merely patriotism, the other echelon to religious allegiance. That is what you have failed, miserably if I needed to add it, to comprehend. If Kambiz is undisciplined in his ways, so be it, but the man who begins to even insinuate that Kambiz by any means is a fascist, or god forbid if I say it, a Nazist, has clearly reached rock-bottom in the scale of failure.

Kambiz lives in a land that mourns foreigner mass-murderers and religious fanatics by a regular basis, all the while he bears witness to true forces of evil, who in the name of religion deems the heritage of "Iran, during her period of ignorance" unfit to exist. Indeed, during the very Islamic Revolution itself, the clergy prepared to bulldoze Persepolis; Not even Alexander would have done something so vile. Even the bard of the national epic, Ferdôwsî was able to forgive Eskandar. I too can forgive the drunkard's rage, as I can forgive the men of reputation who are able to feel regret; It is not in my place to judge. It is rude. What I can do is observe, and whatever happened has happened. We must set the distinction between acceptance and approval. History, after all, is the study of facts in a past reality. Kambiz lives in a country where he is forced to witness the decay of his homeland; He clearly finds solace in the times of greatness, and less so in times of humiliation. It does not excuse his behaviour. But attempting to play with the idea of a "Persian Hitler", is not only a childish notion, but a highly striking irony when Iran today already holds the title as a den of religious fascism. Do some of you think there are too many Iranian patriots in this world, let alone those who do not shrug their arms in ignorance when it comes to the Arsacids, let alone the Seleucids? I'd beg to differ. We need to applaud these human beings who realize the inanity of self-scourge for the sake of religion, and show admiration to Iranian history. This is nothing that is encouraged by the current regime.

Sarcasm and Abou are my friends and colleagues. We have argued in the past, but the discipline that we hold in acceptance and respect of different schools of thought brands the very beauty of history itself. Within Europa Barbarorum, people from all around the world collaborate in an attempt of bringing history as accessibly as possible to the computers of the common man. I bring what little I know about the Ancient Iranians. That is it. Kambiz is also my friend, and an enthusiastic one at that. I may not always have time for his questions at the times that he PMs me, but it always brings a smile to my face knowing that I give fuel to a fire thirsting for knowledge. He has his short-comings, sometimes misunderstandings erupt, things happen... But his curiosity should be envied by all of his countrymen. All of them. All students blunder. This isn't the first time Kambiz blunders through wrong or inadequate selection of words, but then again, in a country where the English language hardly is reared, I feel the need to step forward. Taking what he says at face value is about as good as constructing a straw-man. A man of proper intellect will see through it. One of my best friends in this team, Keravnos, a native of Greece, is a true paragon of dignity. He takes great pains in exploring his admiration for even the most obscure cultures. He carries today most of the credit in rearing the forgotten Greeks of India.

Show some respect even if others don't. If you want an Iranian Nazi, I'll only point at the puppet president of Iran. If you want a Greek Nazi, I'll point to the Chrysi Avyi organization.

To whomever with the ability, close this thread. It has no use anymore. By the gods of Jägermeister, I think even Tellos finds Heineken to be infinitely more pleasurable than reading through this thread full of tripe, and he loves that beverage as much as I admire the Ebola virus. "

I. You, dear sir, have completely misunderstood me. True. It's all very true.
First of all, in a previous post on that thread I am taking Kambiz's side, but you didn't have the time to read it I presume. And I am also asking some of the guys offending him to be more polite, as without respect we're simple animals.

II. You said:
"Show some respect even if others don't. If you want an Iranian Nazi, I'll only point at the puppet president of Iran. If you want a Greek Nazi, I'll point to the Chrysi Avyi organization."

Regarding me calling a persian a "fascist" or a "nazi": It's a matter of fact that my father works on an oil rig in the Persian Gulf and from him I got to know of persians as he has many PERSIAN (not arabian) friends in Iran. True, very true. I also know about Ayatullah Ruhollah Khomeini and his islamic revolution. And I know how sick and tired are iranians of their fundamentalist leaders. True. So please, before making assumptions regarding my remarks maybe try to understand what I really mean. Here it is, explanation:

III. I said: "I think he was cloned. Hitler that is. And now he's just a boy. Think about an iranian or greek Hitler. Now wouldn't that be strange? Or even a romanian Hitler. Damn, that would be strange."

What I mean here is that Hitler (not Kambiz) could be of any nationality/ethnicity including romanian. And this statement came as a answer to some of our fellow forumers sarcastic remarks about Kambiz, who wasn't that polite himself as you said yourself. It's true, it can be interpreted the way you did, dear sir, but not if you have read my previous posts.

IV. I don't demand an apology as you were very polite and I did like your tone. I just wanted to make things as clear as possible as I hate it when I am accused of thing I don't do or even intend. You misunderstood my remark and it's ok. Not all of us have time reading an entire post. Like I said, just wanted to make myself clear.

V. About being polite and showing respect on forums. I think that some people have it, others don't. I am sick and tired of people insulting themselves in situations when noone has claim. "Romans were killers, Persians were little girls, Celts were simpletons, Greeks were gay, etc". Some of these ancient people are our actual ancestors and calling them names actually offends some of us. Is that simple. Maybe Roman were indeed cruel and yes, Persians were conquered by Alexander, some of the Greeks were indeed homosexual. So what? Why do we judge an individual by general facts? Not all Romans were cruel, some Persians, like Cyrus the Great for example were brilliant leaders, and is nothing wrong with being gay! And no, barbarians were not stupid, they conquered Rome eventually.

VI. To all of you who think insulting is not that much of a deal: don't say on a forum what you don't have the guts to say in real life and don't hide behind a computer. It's not manly. Not the case with The Persian Cataphract, I am not suggesting that. Far from it. Like I said, I have great respect for your posts and for your manner of dealing with offences.

VII. That's all I wanted to say about respect and I hope (repeating myself) that I made myself clear. Sorry for my bad english as I am not a native speaker so I assume I have some mistakes, but I tried my best. If any of you have any questions please ask as I assume this thread will be closed very soon. I would have sent a PM to TPC but I wanted people to know I had no intention of insulting anyone. Like I said, I hate it when I'm accused of things I don't intend. Peace be with you.

P.S The thread I mention it's called :Antiochos the Great" and was locked due to lack of respect.

Not to be offensive or anything, but I think a simple pm to each other would have solved this.

You're not. Maybe I overreacted but... I hate it, like I said, when I am accused of things I don't even intend.

English fucking language. So easy to be offended of, easier to offend with.

Btw, what I said in that thread, about Sarcasm, that was a joke. But no, I don't agree with Sarcasm, Pharnakes, abou and all the others who say whatever they feel. Being polite is not hard to do. All one needs is some selfcontrol, and the lack of it causes these "- I have an opinion; - Fuck your opinion!" moments. These aren't even realtime conversations. You can take as much time as you want typing, and can even check what you just wrote before posting. There's no excuse for insults. And if you insult on purpose, well... I'm not religious but I have taken one "bible philosophy" and edited it to suit me: "Don't do to others what you don't want done to you".

If you insult someone, don't complain if you get one back at you. Just remember that a fight in a forum doesn't involve just the two, so is it really worth it? Sometimes a little chivalry is in order. This place isn't about boosting one's ego.


Edit: Meant as a general rant. Not directed towards anyone in particular. Sarcasm, Pharnakes and abou are just examples from the thread in question.

damn i wish i had been able to see that thread now, and i totally agree with what you say: some people here need to realise that a computer isn't a shield you can insult people from behind. As a joke it's alright, but if someone seriously does it to spite someone...pathetic.

Edit-Thaatu making a jab at the English language there? hehe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thaatu

English fucking language. So easy to be offended of, easier to offend with.

Btw, what I said in that thread, about Sarcasm, that was a joke. But no, I don't agree with Sarcasm, Pharnakes, abou and all the others who say whatever they feel. Being polite is not hard to do. All one needs is some selfcontrol, and the lack of it causes these "- I have an opinion; - Fuck your opinion!" moments. These aren't even realtime conversations. You can take as much time as you want typing, and can even check what you just wrote before posting. There's no excuse for insults. And if you insult on purpose, well... I'm not religious but I have taken one "bible philosophy" and edited it to suit me: "Don't do to others what you don't want done to you".

If you insult someone, don't complain if you get one back at you. Just remember that a fight in a forum doesn't involve just the two, so is it really worth it? Sometimes a little chivalry is in order. This place isn't about boosting one's ego.


Edit: Meant as a general rant. Not directed towards anyone in particular. Sarcasm, Pharnakes and abou are just examples from the thread in question.

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I agree with you 100%. It's not for me to judge what people do or say. I just tried honestly to defend Kambiz as he was only one. And my post was... haw can I call it?... It could be read in many ways. If the last part is intended for me also, about ego, I give you my word as I explained here, I didn't offended anyone, I was only pointing that Hitler could have been chinese, from Trinidad, Congo or wherever. And this post is not for my ego, is for proving a point. I am trying to prove exactly what you say here and I am using my example. Yes I was pissed when I saw TPC's post, but his polite lenguage took all the anger away. This is what I am saying here. Polite is ok even if a mistake. Unpolite isn't even if it's true.

P.S "Always speak the thruth, even if it lead to your death" just do it polite. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Emperor Burakuku

You're not. Maybe I overreacted but... I hate it, like I said, when I am accused of things I don't even intend.

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It's not internet, people like to say things. I noticed people tend to be a bit more mature in these EB forums than in other places online.

I for one don't really care what people say in these forums about me, or make up stories of me saying something else. I will never meet any of you people and I don't see any real consequences of upsetting every single person off in this board except maybe being banned from it...which I think I will still manage to go on with my life :laugh4:

Just laugh it off, tell it how it is, and if people still don't accept it..whatever!

Personaly I don't think I was stepping over the bounds in that thread, but if I did offened anyone, I would like to take this opertunity to offer my sincere apologies to anyone I offended. :bow:

Oh,and BTW Burakuku, if you find this board ofensive sometimes, take my advice and don't ever join another board on the internet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pharnakes

Personaly I don't think I was stepping over the bounds in that thread, but if I did offened anyone, I would like to take this opertunity to offer my sincere apologies to anyone I offended. :bow:

Oh,and BTW Burakuku, if you find this board ofensive sometimes, take my advice and don't ever join another board on the internet.

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I don't find the board offensive, I find ppl offensive. That's different. Here, there, everywhere. And I am trying to make things better as much as I can. And knowing that there are ppl who share my ideas like Long lost Caesar and Thaatu, makes me feel better. :2thumbsup:

P.S "Every candle lights a corner of the dark" - Roger Waters

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tapanojum

It's not internet, people like to say things. I noticed people tend to be a bit more mature in these EB forums than in other places online.

I for one don't really care what people say in these forums about me, or make up stories of me saying something else. I will never meet any of you people and I don't see any real consequences of upsetting every single person off in this board except maybe being banned from it...which I think I will still manage to go on with my life :laugh4:

Just laugh it off, tell it how it is, and if people still don't accept it..whatever!

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I said before: "Speak the truth even if it leads to your dead" and added "just do it polite". This is the main idee of my post. I just don't like to laugh over it. It's not me. Or maybe I can't. Maybe I'm obsessed by truth, who knows?

Well, I recieved your PM and now I have been directed to this thread of yours. What struck me at the moment was "Who is this?", with utmost candor. I do remember my last entry before I called it a night. I intended for it to have a haplessly derailed thread closed. Initially I urged people to not walk into the grounds of discussing the historical Greek-Iranian relationship during antiquity. Instead jestful comments on fascism, nationalism, and Hitler, clearly with a precedent in a thread started to emerge. What I wrote was for a preventive reason. Not to pick and choose some victim at random. Even though I quoted your entry, you shall find that upon closer inspection of the concerned entry, that only very little is relevant to the discussion of communalistic ideologies (Or dedicated to, so to speak). It is never in my intention to harass individuals. Neither is it my style, nor do indulge in such praxis to gain enemies on the Internet. Not only would it be beneath my character, but it would also be too petty. Equally, I do not get offended on the Internet. I do not expect everyone to follow this axiom, but it tells nonetheless a good deal about my character.

What you may come to realize that much of what I wrote pertains to an attitude that I have seen for a long time on the Internet, and not necessarily only at Total War forums. Not necessarily to what you wrote, even if it in retrospect was of a jestful nature. I have seen much less been called "Hitler" or "fascist" due to non-conformity to popular perception. I live in Sweden, a remarkable country. A hospitable, generous but naïve country; It embraces multi-culturalism to the extreme level, and all things that may even hint at patriotism or the need to retain the unique Scandinavian culture is not only shunned, but discouraged. A man who may have a Swedish flag hanging outside of his balcony may be called a "racist", as equally as schools have been forced to abolish the national anthem in assemblies. Now that you do mention a certain familiarity with Iranians, you must also have notified the very binary nature of an Iranian man; You'll either find a passionate man who proudly exclaims to have visited grand places of hegemony, or a complete nutcase who only thinks of how much the chains need fettering before the next day of ritual self-scourging. Now I ask to you, sincerely, if you heckled the prelude to a baseball game, or show resentment to the banners of your own homeland. Chances are high, if not indiscriminately high, that you do not. If that is the case, then you may take relief in the fact that you are not some target or a scapegoat.

It is possible for any man to commit an error; I have no problem making admissions, indeed, for I may have erred in assessing the situation at that stage. What I will not excuse myself from is the candor in combination with tact. If anyone wishes to meet an Iranian nazist, he'll be best off dragging someone from the high clergy or the presidential puppet. If anyone wishes to meet a Greek nazist, Golden Dawn should fit the bill. In retrospect to what had previously been uttered, and then the sudden jest in not taking the situation very seriously will sooner or later lead to people who speak of possible developments. It is only a shame that text only allows me so much flexibility in lieu of being more personal in communication. You'll see that out of principle, I'll never side against fellow EB members, lest they make gross miscalculations, and even then I do not bring it to the public.

I'm not a stranger to controversy. Like Sarcasm, you will find it highly unlikely that my character will budge. I believe candor is best served like a Jack Daniels on the rocks and with a twist. There's the content, and then the delivery. Everyone enjoys a hardball drink now and then, but it's better to have it served chilled and not having the bartender releasing a Lincoln Log breeze into the glass. True, we are not only better than animals, but on the Internet, I personally set for myself an even higher standard on personal conduct.

I do not make enemies on the Internet on purpose. I am sorry if you got offended or hurt, and I do hope that you will take relief in the fact that when I usually write long rants, it usually carries minimal personal designation to it; What may initially start out as a brief response may branch out into becoming a statement for everyone to see and appreciate. Think of it as the Roman Senate in those old sandals and swords movies, they'll usually protest or argue at first, only to later bring their own case :rtwyes:

Well, let that be a lesson to all: don't go around using associations with Hitler in vain, certainly not on a board dedicated to ancient history. It serves little purpose in discourse, and allows things to get out of hand very quickly.

I. I am not offended man. Like I said, you were very polite and there was no reason for me to be. :2thumbsup:
II. I agree with siding with your fellow EBrs cuz you're a team and you all did this great, greatest mod.
III. About the binar iranian nature I do understand it because we, romanians are very similar. We also had a 50 years of comunism like Iran has his islamist-fundamentalist leadership. It's not the same thing but it's simmilar. Very simmilar I would say, just because those two systems take away from you one very precios thing. Freedom.
IV. I really am not offended and therefore no apology needed. You really are a man of rare quality and you proved it again. Congrats.

So I think I have proven my point. People can get along from time to time and the fact that they are polite, makes thing much easier. Cheers :2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Well, let that be a lesson to all: don't go around using associations with Hitler in vain, certainly not on a board dedicated to ancient history. It serves little purpose in discourse, and allows things to get out of hand very quickly.

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I didnt use it first. Bah. It was used sarcasticly and I reused it in the same way to prove my point. Read the thread. :beam: Must I always be misunderstood?

I have not been involved in one of those, "HellenesVSIranians" threads as quite frankly, both sides lost. Look at a present map of the world and you will see what I mean.

What is very interesting to note, and hasn't been noted enough is that the emperors/states that made Iranians and Greeks work together, really managed to create great empires.

Parthians and Baktrians used extensively both Hellenes and Iranians and both were very succesful. They managed to do so emphasizing the strengths of each nation and thess lessening the weakness of each.

Baktrians could NEVER have invaded India without the great mass of horsemen and infantry coming from their Iranian and Indo-Iranian subjects.

Parthians could never field any infantry without greek knowhow/weapons/phallangitai/hoplitai/thureophoroi in their ranks.
They were known as "Philellenes" (friends of greeks) for a reason.

It is worth remembering, that.

There is no need for theads like this here. It's not a group therapy session, but a board to discuss EB. Starting a new thread to take up a personal issue you have with some folks here is not called for. Especially since it is just continuing a discussion that was *locked* already in another thread.

I'm locking this thread now (this time by a different moderator than locked the first one). If anyone wants to start a new thread up on the same topic then they can expect to be removed from having access to this forum.