Ach! Bridges, Hills, and Terrible Weather, Oh my!

Playing as the Germans/Early, I retreated from my alpine provinces early on (minus Bavaria for some strange attachment reason). When I had stabilized enough, I headed south again. Now, normally I'm good with Catholics, but this has got me frustrated to no end! I am attempting to conquer Venice, I'll have to make sure, and I keep getting a bridge battle combined with mountains, and for some reason it's always snowing! I usually have entirely different tactics for hills/mountains (light and fast army to quickly get into position so as to take away the bonuses from terrain height) versus bridges (very heavy army with much armour with a couple archers). Add to this its always snowing (bad for the heavies, good for me though) and I can't get over the bridge without so many losses that I can't take them one they retreat to the mountains, and it has me tearing my hair out. What do I do? This province is key, as it is has good production facilities, and it would separate the Doge from the rest of his Kingdom. Any Ideas?

Current Army Composition - 4 Star Prince
4x Mounted Sergeants
4x Feudal Men at Arms
2x Archers
2x Royal Knights
3x Feudal Sergeants (2nd armour upgrade)

The Enemies ( +1 Armour and Morale Upgrade for all units) - 6 Star General
6x Militia Sergeants
4x Archers
4x Royal Knights
2x Italian Infantry

They have reinforcements, made of 4 UM and 3 Spears. Although I can switch units around, I cannot add anything, as I am currently occupied elsewhere. If it helps any I have access to any Feudal unit.

I can't see a solution for this tactically. Their numbers, general and quality and types of troops and terrain make it impossible for you to win ths IMHO. Maybe if you can lure them piece meal to your side of the bridge but this'll be very costly and uncertain of its effectiveness.

If you have time, you could soften the force up first by attacking a few times with siege engines and some protection for them. This will deplete the defenders' ranks but can take a few years before they are depleted enough. And if they decide to cross the bridge en mass it could get costly for you.

If I were you, I would tackle this problem strategically:
(A) Attack with so many men the italians have no other choice then to retreat. If the Doge is there they'll retreat sooner.

(B) Lure them in attacking you. Make them give up there defensive position. I would prefer this.

Either way, you won't annex Venice next year.

Thats a hard battle to win. But i think there might be a change. When attacking the hill. Split your army in 3 small armys. make each army good balanced. the army in the center can be the weakest and must move up first to catch the arrows. Halt them at some distance from the enemy line. Move the other groeps up hill, passing the flanks of the enemey in oder to encircle them. Then attack with wat is left of the center groep. When the enemy try to crush your center move the to armys on the flanks in to crush them instead.
Its not certain it will work perfect but this tactic seems to work for me best when attacking armys on high hills.

The bridge battle can be best won with archers or siege weapons. Or to provoce the enemy to attach a spear unit of you on the bridge covered by javalins. the javelins will kill almost eny unit that attacks the spears, while the spears catch most enemy arows.

maybe this is of some use for your battle.

I would say you don't have enough archers. What I would do (if waiting wasn't an option) is put one of my infantry units just within arrow range (loose formation) and get the Venetians to use up their arrows, then mount a series of fake attacks over the bridge by a fast unit, to draw them into your own missile fire. When all your arrows are used up you can still use the attack-retreat tactic (now using archers who are faster) to lure them over the bridge where you can mob them. A very long-drawn-out procedure but a full-throttle frontal assault is doomed.

Alternatively, you could try to enter Venice from a different province of yours where you don't have to cross a river...

Quick look at your army, my first thought was "He's got no mounted X-bows" (IMHO these guys are essential for HRE), 2nd thought was "Too much (h2h) cavalry for a bridge assault", and the 3rd was "WTF? NO CATAPULTS!?!?" :laugh4: :laugh4:

So on army composition I would suggest:

a) Replace 3 of your mounted sergeants with 2x mounted X-bow and 1x catapult
b) Replace at least one FMAA with archers,
c) Replace another FMAA with Swabians if you have them teched up (so far you have absolutely no AP units)

Tactically I'd set up a good cross-fire field over the bridge, wang at them with the catapult for a while (it won't do a lot of damage, but it can whittle down the armoured units nicely and demoralise them a bit), then resign one unit of FS to die as cannon-fodder and try to draw their impetuous knights and Italian inf into your shooting gallery. If they bite then use a fresh FS unit to hold the bridge till you run out of missiles, then send in the Swabs to clear the log-jam, follow up with more FS or FMAA as conditions dictate. Don't commit any cavalry til the bridge is clear. If you need any punch the knights and MS can go in - so long as you are not going to get pinned - and the emptied-out MX are brilliant for mopping up the routers (and sniping the general if you get the chance). Once you're over the bridge their reinforcements will seem like a bad joke. If you've killed their general the UM should run home screaming as soon as one of your horses breaks wind in their direction, and your Swabs and FMAAs will handle the spears nicely.

Then you'll wonder why you struggled at first ~D

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Originally Posted by I of the Storm

Alternatively, you could try to enter Venice from a different province of yours where you don't have to cross a river...

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If a battle is impossible to win without crippling losses, then this is the best option.

If you somehow win this battle it makes no sense to end up with only a bettered token force to hold the province down, only to see the enemy invade again next year before you can get your garrison in there.

Generally if the enemy are across the bridge with missiles and cavalry I usually deploy a light cavalry to run across and get behind their lines if possible. Horse archers are ideal but as you have access to mounted cross bows then those will be your best bet. These provide a diversion more than anything else to draw some of their force off to give your men crossing the bridge a better chance. Once your forces are engaged trying to cross the bridge, you need all of the morale destroying force you can summon up. Catapults are a good one, though any kind of missile attack is good. Target the units that are trying to mount the bridge and not any of those on the bridge so as not to accidentally hit your own. If you can get one unit to rout, hit the next and so on. If you're lucky you may get a few chain routers.

:bow:

Catapults.

Thanks guys, I know wonder why I was struggling :stupido2: . I can now easily beat the bridge battle, as the RK would always run after my FS, get across the bridge and get engaged and drag the rest of their army into what could pass for a marching column being ambushed (looks that way anyway). I usually have more cavalry when attacking hills, and as mentioned, this was my main problem. Also, My own impetuousness (oh, no! :laugh4: ) got in the way. I wanted Venice so bad, I didn't even realize that the Doge was afraid of the Hungarians too! He sat in Croatia for 6 years, long enough for me to take the long way around, which cost less casualties and was easier to reinforce. The only thing that I didn't take to heart was the suggestion of Catapults. I either can't get the hang of them, or you guys have uber catapults, as a single unit of archers for me inflicts many more casualties. I have a question though; Can a unit that has inflicted many, many casualties cause fear? I had a set of Very Tired Swabs that no one would fight, who I know could not have been that tired by themselves, who had killed 132 MS (It was rather humorous to watch 4 units of MS try to run back over the bridge that was blocked by them). Speaking of Swabs and XM, they were busy in Lorraine, had something to do with killing boys in frilly blue uniforms during that year.

Patience, not strength, is key. Wish that would stay in my head...

We, at least I, talked about catapults (or siege engines in general) because they have a bigger range than archers. It's true they probably won't do as much damage as an archer unit but they won't get hit by missiles either. Add to that that they cause fear which may result in a faster rout. Thirdly, the enemy may choose to place itself out of range and thus forsake their first defensive position (aka the bridge).

AFAIK no unit causes fear in itself other than siege engines and gunpowder units (when they hit something).
The AI calculates if a unit what units it can take on on the battle field. If the AI thinks that they don't have a reasonable chance than that unit won't attack or may even march away from your unit. This may happened in your case.
There is another possibility. Militia sergants aren't known for their good morale. This morale increases even more when they become outnumbered and/or outmatched (your force in that area is more numerous and/or better in quality). This could have been the case even to the point that they started to rout even without a fight.

I would of said you had far too many cavalry for such a crossing sah, I also would of sent you running back to the academy for launching a campaign through the Alps!!

My god, are you sure there are no other options than to send your army through that belt of stakes?
It is meant to be a natural barrier!
No matter, the stratagem has been decided and the campaign is undertaken.

Lord, why did you attempt this?
What are the disadvantages of conducting your passage through Osterreich and circling around the eastern end of the Alpines?
Unless you thought it perilous to traipse your route in an corridor between the hard Hungarian and Serbian forces, and the rock-like mountain range..

The actual missiles from the catapult cause fear (morale penalty).

The use of catapults in bridge battles is a dark art known only to a few twisted initiates who have sacrificed enough peasants and virgins to the gods :evil:

I classify their uses in this order:

1) Denial of ground - if you can target the enemy's end of the bridge they should pull back rather than being pulverised
2) Demoralising
3) Outranging enemy missile troops
4) Killing things

That's right, their kills are the least important aspect (though if you can lob a rock or two into a couple of crowded spear units they will valour up quite nicely and start hitting things they're aimed at ~D) I also try to get my catapults sited so they can enfillade the enemy line, or at least hit it obliquely - where accuracy is poor it helps to maximise the possibilities for a "miss" to hit something else instead ~D - find the deepest cross-section you can, then target the nearest part of that, catapult missiles bounce quite nicely :2thumbsup:

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Patience, not strength, is key.

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It is indeed :bow: It is so easy to grasp defeat from the jaws of victory just by over-extending.

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Originally Posted by macsen rufus

The use of catapults in bridge battles is a dark art known only to a few twisted initiates who have sacrificed enough peasants and virgins to the gods :evil:

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After a few more sacrifices you can move on to advanced camel warefare systems, often abbreviated to ACWS... that is, if you think you've got what it takes?

ACWS?

I'm interested in that - I've grown to love my camels, smell and all. I now find them very effective units - and will sometimes use them outside desert and arid lands against masses of horses ...

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Originally Posted by Caravel

After a few more sacrifices you can move on to advanced camel warefare systems, often abbreviated to ACWS... that is, if you think you've got what it takes?

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And the award goes to Caravel for making me laugh harder than I have all week. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by sharpshooter

I'm interested in that - I've grown to love my camels, smell and all. I now find them very effective units - and will sometimes use them outside desert and arid lands against masses of horses ...

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~:cheers:

Plus they're cheap and have low build requirements....what's not to love? :2thumbsup:

my horse says the smell

if you can try to recruit mercenary organ guns for bridge battles (167 kills in one salvo :)) as they tend to tear shreds through people crossing the bridge and catapults + archers further weaken the enemy until 3 units of sergeants / foot knights / billmen / halbadiers can tear them to peices while the organ gun gets ready for another devastating salvo


heres how i handle bridge battles
haa oo g
bbbbbbb h 0 g
haa oo g

b is birdge
h is halbadiers / all them other things
a is arhcers
0 is organ guns
o is other
g is guns/seige enginers

if you need any help on castle battles ill ask my dad how he does em, hes beaten an army of 3000 and something with 300 and something men in castles