Siege Assault -- Staffing a Forlorn Hope

RTW, to be successful and take objectives quickly, demands that you be effective at siege assault. Some points about siege assault are obvious:

1. If you can arrange to be attacked by an AI relief army, you can usually beat them AND eradicate the garrison and avoid siege assault entirely.

2. Troops going up ladders or siege towers do better if they can ascend and form before going into the melee.

3. Troops going up ladders and siege towers need good sword/axe hitting power and armor to do well if there is a more or less immediate scrum waiting at the top.

4. Rams brought against stone walls or better are usually kindling on wheels. Their only value is to draw the fire of the gatehouse away from the siege towers rolling forward on either side of the ram. It will never make the gate.

5. Elephants are useless against stone walls or better as you'll fry/frenzy three full cards against the gate before the 4th unit opens it.

So, with those points as a given....


How do you take a breach or broken gate? Who do you use as your Forlorn Hope -- that first unit that will be trashed going in at point. Remember, this is the tough one since 1-2 enemy units can hold you there a long time and cause you to lose to the clock.


I asked this question once before and the answer was dogs. I now play MODS that have removed the puppies from play, so that wonderful little wave of cost-free self-replacing canine flesh that hammers into the enemy and creates a space for your first real unit to enter AND form up is NOT available as an answer. Nor are incendiary pigs, though I admit that the idea of sending them flaming through a breach would make for a good chuckle.


Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen?

It depends on which faction your using, but I'd recommend heavy infantry as you Forlorn Hope, backed up with some light missile troops. Only use mines and towers when assualting stone fortifactions, as you'll take fewer causulities.

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Originally Posted by Hound of Ulster

It depends on which faction your using, but I'd recommend heavy infantry as you Forlorn Hope, backed up with some light missile troops. Only use mines and towers when assualting stone fortifactions, as you'll take fewer causulities.

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I second this. Towers + the heaviest infantry available (Spartans, Sacred Band, etc.) seem to work out the best. Sap points are more preferable if the army has lots of cavalry, or the infatry is too weak to wrestle the walls from the defenders (often the case with Parthians/Sassanids). Elite Phalanx troops are every bit as good as legionaries at taking walls, as long as the Defensive Mode and spearwall have been disabled. As usual, Spartans are the top choice at taking walls because they are, well, red-caped supermen.

I will normally use ballsitas, or better still flaming onagers to fire through the doorway and smash and soliders standing there. Maybe take quite a few shots untila random one goes through and devastates them... probs make them panic and run as well so you can either:

charge tghrough your cavalry just as you halt firing.

march through your heavy infantry you have sneaked up in tortoise formatuion.

Typically, I find phalanx units to be the best for this purpose. From my experiences, they seem to be able to hold the enemy at bay with their spears resulting in minimal losses. Likewise, at the same time, they can quite easily destroy any enemies at front as well as, if not better, than any other "normal" unit. Since such units aren't available to all nations, I staff mercenary hoplites for exactly this reason.

Of course, it has to be a medium phalanx unit or above for it to work correctly - otherwise the enemy break their way through the spears and sword fighting, which phalanx units are vulnerable in, begins.

If no mercenary hoplites are available, and I cannot train any new ones, I generally use the heaviest infantry unit available that I can afford. Cavalry also can serve this purpose, although they aren't as versatile since they cannot man siege weapons should the need arrive.

Siege engines help tons. They make it so much easier. But I, like im sure most player, don't bring siege equipment with me. So the key is as in all battles fix and flank.

For non-stone walls this is a matter of having more rams then they have heavy units. No so much as more rams then defenders, but heavy units that can guard a break in the wall.
If you send a heavy unit or two on a wide flank with a ram. The computer will only send a single unit to defend. It will keep its strongest units at the gate. So usually I put my strongest units on the flank when in attacking.


Now against Stone walls:
The default is of course true. Which would be have more ladders, siege towers then the defender has of heavy units.
This seems to always just be who can bring the best heavy unit to bear. As romans or Greeks who have the upper hand here. If you do have the upper hand in unit strength then dont be afraid to spread yourself out on the attack.
Now if your not a heavy infantry faction then you have to go for sappers and almost forget about getting on the walls.

But as I said at the top siege engines will make your life tons easier. So maybe the unit your looking for isnt a heavy infantry unit but a few siege engines. :evilgrin:
:hmg:

When I first lay a siege, the first piece of siege equipment I que up is a sapping point, simply in case every tower gets destroyed and I still have a large army. Then I que up a line of siege towers, the most I've ever had being seventeen. Believe me, that will spread out the defenders and you can be sure that most of them will get through.

I prefer to not use the sapping point as the breach also allows enemy reinforcements a way in as well. On the other hand, I use as many towers as I can. While I have used enemy siege towers to re-enter my walls, the AI seems not to have caught on to trying that yet.

The idea of multiple sapping points has not occurred to me until now, but then that becomes added expense of repairing the wall after the city is taken. I have tried using artillery to pound on defenders but the results seem to have been minimal. I might try that later this evening.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

it's interesting that somebody mentioned the infantry issues of Persia in Rome and BI. My tricks have included chasing enemy forces into the vicinty of the city I wish to take (the ERE falls for this trick all the time in BI) or using spies to undermine the city's loyalty or break the gates open. (Used with devastating effect against the Seluekids in SPQR) I never include infantry in my field armies with either Persian faction. The Persian infantry are good for garrison duty however.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

How do you take a breach or broken gate?

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what i do is send 2-3 (i recommend 3) unit of what ever units (i suggesst units that can phalanx) , make a square with the men in phalanx potistion, the gate being the bottom half of the square, hope you know wat i mean! :thinking2:

for my legions,i would suppress the enemy on the walls and enemy blocking the hole with my arrows,javelins and pilums,plus onagers fire if i got them before entering enemy city(mostly,i use sap point coz the hole will bigger than the city gate and allow my legions faster to enter).Then i will send my legions get staight to capture city center.

:2thumbsup:

Personally when attacking stone walls I mainly stick to sap points and ladders if possible. Sometimes I bring along onagers or heavy onagers to take out the towers then deploy light infantry to the sap points. If using ladders I'll send a ram or two in as a diversion. Towers always seem to burn.

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Originally Posted by ilikethisgame5

what i do is send 2-3 (i recommend 3) unit of what ever units (i suggesst units that can phalanx) , make a square with the men in phalanx potistion, the gate being the bottom half of the square, hope you know wat i mean! :thinking2:

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That's defending a breach. I'm talking about going the other way...

Turn the hourglass off so you have time to plan and carry out the attack. Set up your ladders and towers all along the front. When you press start, note where the defenders are, and plan a route to the square. You're going to send a unit or two to where the walls are undefended, then run them round to some undefended gates. You will leave a few units of your lightest troops in front of the wall defenders, while your heavies are gong to the gate that provides easiest access to the square. That's the gist of the plan.

Send some heavies up the ladder or tower to an undefended part of the wall, moreover one that will allow them to swing round to some more undefended parts of the wall, right through to a convenient gate. They should be heavies to allow them to endure the tower fire, and to run through any light troops they may run into, although this isn't critical - if there is no opposition on the wall on the way to your chosen destination, light troops will do just as well.

Your other heavies will make their way to the gate you're planning to enter. Once the gate is opened and the neighbouring towers cleared, they go in. You don't need cavalry or missile units, as you're not really planning on attacking. Since you've left an at least reasonable contingent in front of the wall defenders, they'll stay on the wall as your attackers make their way to the square, rather than come down to fight. Quickly get your heavies to the square and clear it of the enemy. If you can, spare a few heavies to block the routes to the square while you're dealing with its defenders. The aim is to make the clock work for you.

Once you've cleared the square, leave the weakest remaining unit or two in the most remote part of the square, where they'll be keeping an eye on the clock. All the other heavies will be spamming the approaches, making sure that neither attackers nor routers can reach the square and restart the countdown.

This is the most reliable way of taking stone walls or better, and plays on the game mechanics. Since the defending AI is hardcoded, this will work with all mods, with the same underlying principles.

ok sorry bout that:mickey:

also use your infantry to claim the towers along your route to the square. You can save a lot causlities this way.

If you have Onagers and are attacking a woden wall especially, it is easy to destroy towers.

The best assault troops probably come from Germania. During sieges Berserkers, Chosen axemen and Night raiders can rip there way through almost any units apart from elite phalanx, Berserkers are like Forlorn Hope of RTW.

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Originally Posted by QuintusJulius-Cicero

The best assault troops probably come from Germania. During sieges Berserkers, Chosen axemen and Night raiders can rip there way through almost any units apart from elite phalanx, Berserkers are like Forlorn Hope of RTW.

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Do you mean through a gap in the fence, on a wall or both?

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Originally Posted by mrdun

Do you mean through a gap in the fence, on a wall or both?

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I think both. Berserkers can knock a man 6 feet into the sky.

Nice. ie a nice rush on a wall and all enemy infantry are nrsing broken legs and worse when they have been barged off. They seem like shock troopers with a likeness to cav. I need to use Germania more often.

Berserkers are awfully scary.