North African Forest Elephants

There has been a lot of discussion on this in the historical community, and the effects of this constroversy have reached my classroom. My history professor mentioned that Hannibal's elephants were huge, much bigger than the Indian elephant or the very small southern African elephant. However, [I]Loxodonta africana[I] (the bush elephant), is commonly known to be the biggest of the elephant species, while a subspecies of Loxodonta cyclotis (the small forest elephant), is thought to have been the elephants of the Carthaginians. This is the view that I hold, but I was wondering what the rest of the EB community thinks.

Ask him what his sources are for this.

Wasn't Hannibal's personal mount an Indian elephant? I'm pretty sure he had some Indian elephants with him in Italy.

AFAIK he had one elephant called Syrus. Whether or not that has something to do with Syria, or with Indian elephants, or with yet another breed of elephants I do not know.

Isn't the big African bush 'phant virtually undomesticable anyway ? Doesn't leave too many alternatives as to what the Carthies' bigger animals were methinks.

The problem is that with the rather easy-going Indian elephants the bulls become quite uncontrollable when it's about time to show off in front of some ladies; and the African version is a tad more agressive (and much bigger) than the Indian kind in regular situations already...

Which raises yet another issue: it is one thing to capture and breed elephants, it is quite another to make them do war when you want it - elephants tend to run away from virtually everything. Then again, this may be solved by drugging them up with strong wine etc. (elephants can take quite a bit, and the effect is comparatively the same as with humans AFAIK) *but* that won't help controlling them much. For the elephants there is only one side: the elephants'. And the rest be squashed or avoided.

Then again, the beasts are by virtue of size and power already relatively predisposed to "fight" over "flight" - unlike that giant rabbit people mostly rode in war, the horse...

No not really. Just like with quite a few other animals they try to get as big so that by virtue of their size they will never need to. So they will just try to run straight through and get out of reach.

Fair enough, but it does tend to make them somewhat more difficult to convince to run the other way than animals whose primary form of defense is what the Renaissance fencing masters delicately termed "the Fifth Defense" - high-speed escape.

That's Zama for you, isn't it? :beam:

I dunno, that was more of a clever method of not getting your soldiers trampled by nasty pachyderms combined with a major cavalry advantage, wasn't it ?

From what I have read, yes the bush elephant is for all intents and purposes untameble. Not only that but the bush elephant lives several thousand miles away from Carthage. But I have also heard something about the Ptolemies giving Indian elephants to Carthage as gifts as part of their long alliance. So Hannibal probably had both the medium-sized Indian elephants and the smaller North African forest elephant. According to what I've read, the forest elephant is too small to mount a turret, so they would only have carried the Numidian/other local mahout with his riding prod and maybe some javelins. Meanwhile, the Indian elephants were regularly mounted with 2-4man turrets and the Indian mahout (also armed), some of the men being pikemen and others being slingers, archers or javelin men. The main weapon of the forest elephant was the elephant itself.

No possibility of any cross breeding of elephants?

The forest strain is probably too small compared to the other two to be, ah, mechanically compatible in the first place. Dunno about the genetical compatibility, but one would suspect crossbreeding the Indian and African bush strains would just net you a sterile hybrid smaller than the latter and less tractable than the former... not much of a winning deal.

Well, it's almost certain that the main elephant used by Carthage was the forest one, without a turret which it doesn't seem to have been able to carry. This elephant was also used by the Romans, who ended up hunting it to extinction for use both in games and in the army. However, classical texts mention that the Carthaginians had some elephants that were of exceptional size, such as the Syrus that was alleged to be the only elephant Hannibal still had when he was sick in those marshes. Anyway, Syrus was used to transport the feverish general, who probably wasn't acting as a mahout, so it does seem likely it was one of the larger breeds. It could have been an Indian elephant but it seems highly unlikely that the Carthies could have gotten their hands on one; by the time of the Second Punic War, the Ptolemies AFAIK didn't have any Indian elephants, so I don't think they could have given one to Carthage. That makes the bush elephant seem more likely, but domesticating it is almost impossible. Maybe they become more docile when castrated or something?

Given the sheer problems with the bush elephants (which the Carthies would have had to get through Egypt anyway, unless some nut was willing to try caravaneering them through the Sahara), you'd think it would have been about easier for the Ptolies to see if they couldn't get some pachyderms shipped in from India... It's not exactly close by of course, but the Indian Ocean has some pretty good trade winds. And the Ptolemies had a lot of money.

And you try to castrate a Bush elephant? The one occasion when female elephants get exceedingly agressive is when someone is hurting their calves.
Nevermind about what the calves themselves would do to you when they grow up: they are quite capable of remembering what's been done to them.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Given the sheer problems with the bush elephants (which the Carthies would have had to get through Egypt anyway, unless some nut was willing to try caravaneering them through the Sahara), you'd think it would have been about easier for the Ptolies to see if they couldn't get some pachyderms shipped in from India... It's not exactly close by of course, but the Indian Ocean has some pretty good trade winds. And the Ptolemies had a lot of money.

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TBH I wasn't saying that's what they did. I don't know, really; it's rather a mystery. However, I do know that trade in the Indian Ocean only took off after some Greek explorer mapped out a tradewind sometime in the Hellenestic era, but I can't remember when. If anyone could, that would shed some light on the possibility of and Indian Ocean elephant trade.

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Fair enough, but it does tend to make them somewhat more difficult to convince to run the other way than animals whose primary form of defense is what the Renaissance fencing masters delicately termed "the Fifth Defense" - high-speed escape.

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But horses have the herd instinct. When all the horses run, the individuum is quite unable not to follow. Plus, you can train horses to a fairly high degree. Police forces still do this today.

It can be surprisingly easy to ensure that the horse will *not* follow the herd. You just gotta make sure your horse is a mare (which is what most horses were anyway, because of the greater speed and agility of mares) and that you know how to appeal to her 'follow the stallion' instinct. The latter is mainly a matter of training.

I am not am expert on this matter. But documentaries on animal Planet and Geo Wild on Elephants always show the high temperament and aggressive nature of Loxodonta africana. The two other sp. of elephants today had always been used and tamed by man for work. Elephas maximus, the asiatic sp has been used even for battle, as every one knows. So my guess is that Hannibal had the smaller Loxodonta cyclotis with him on his campaigns, or maybe both off them. Indian elephants are generally smaller than the African elephants, but some bulls are known to have reached the size of the African sp., with tusks almost reaching the ground. Has someone saw the bulls used by the Hindu during their festivals.

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Centurio Nixalsverdrus

But horses have the herd instinct. When all the horses run, the individuum is quite unable not to follow. Plus, you can train horses to a fairly high degree. Police forces still do this today.

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Well, sure. But the problem is the animals' first instinct being to run away from anything threatening, which is obviously not quite something very desirable in a war-mount nevermind one with a strong instinct to go with the herd. Which is why true warhorses were so time-consuming to train, and part of the reason cavalry warfare was so heavily about mind-games and psychological impact.

Of course, it's kinda useful if you can goad the horses into stampede mode when going onto the offensive...

Elephants are more confident - there's not many things an adult one needs to fear in nature, although lions can take down solitary ones - and considerably smarter.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

It can be surprisingly easy to ensure that the horse will *not* follow the herd. You just gotta make sure your horse is a mare (which is what most horses were anyway, because of the greater speed and agility of mares) and that you know how to appeal to her 'follow the stallion' instinct. The latter is mainly a matter of training.

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My understanding is that mares were so generally popular war-mounts simply because uncut stallions are kind of difficult to control and prone to squabbling amongst themselves. While their greater strenght and aggressiveness did make them potentially useful, they tended to require quite severe bits for the riders to maintain the degree of control necessary for combat.

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Originally Posted by CirdanDharix

However, I do know that trade in the Indian Ocean only took off after some Greek explorer mapped out a tradewind sometime in the Hellenestic era, but I can't remember when. If anyone could, that would shed some light on the possibility of and Indian Ocean elephant trade.

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Found it, although it's actually not until the imperial Roman period that Hippalos mapped the tradewinds between the Red Sea and the Malabar Coast. So I'm sorry, but the Ptolemies, in all likelyhood, were unable to import Indian elephants at all (lack of navigational knowledged prevented trade by sea and the Seleucids prevented trade by land), which makes it extremely unlikely that the Carthaginians somehow acquired Indian elephants.

Shouldn't forest elephants be able to hide in trees? :inquisitive:

AFAIK: No. Mostly because 'fitting inside forest' does not mean 'being hidden from all detection when inside forest'.

Think of it: the animal has to be reasonably quiet

which is slightly difficult to achieve with a drugged up elephant: I mean humans aren't exactly quiet either when (close to) being drunk either are they?

; has to be hidden from view

which is going to be kinda difficult as well

; and shouldn't smell too bad.

Rainforest yes, open temperate forest around the meditreanen, no.

Especial since man had ikely had an impact on all the forests theses elephants would be fighting in.