roman manipular formation?

I'm currently playing a roman campaign, trying to do so historically, and well I'm trying to do battles the roman style, (checkerboard) has anyone done is successfully before? It seems everysing time I throw my hastati at the enemy line, the enemy engages the hastati and almost destroys the whole formation, by the time I send the princepe in, the hastati are at half strenght and exhausted, (and probably wavering or shaken) am I doing something wrong? Or is this how roman battles were fought everytime? By the time the battle ends, my hastati need to be sent back to rome to be retreaned, (not fun when your campaigning in northern gaul), can anyone offer good advice?

I think the problem is, that Hastati, and even Principes, aren't really that good. I've used the manipular formation quite succesfully, and it allows some funny moves for example, but if the opponent simply outfights your infantry, and the not-that-good-either Roman cavalry fails to rout enemy units, at least initially, you're going to end up with considerable losses.

Hey KV -- Difficult to say exactly what's going on...the checkerboard formation is typically used more effectively in a defensive role, where the enemy hits elements of the second (stronger) line at the same time it is trying to deal with the first. If you're trying to use this is an offensive capacity, you may not be achieving effective local numerical superiority.

You may also just be leaving your hastati engaged for too long...they're getting chewed up too much by the time you try to pull them out of the line. Keep your principes ready and don't keep your front-line hastati engaged too long.

Finally...you're campaigning in northern Gaul, so you're up against some stiff competition...gaesatae and others. Numerical superiority and the proper mix of troops is important -- some good skirmish units, especially slingers (Balearic, ideally), will make your life easier.

Hope this helps.

Keep your front line in guard formation and don't click attack. Walk them up to the enemy line and hold them until the enemy is winded. Then you unclick guard. You may have to do that sooner if the unit is losing formation. Use your second line to plug the gaps. Also don't pursue routers. Replace a hastati with a fresh principe and do the reverse if necessary. Use all your pila before contact if you can.

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Originally Posted by Decimus Attius Arbiter

Keep your front line in guard formation and don't click attack. Walk them up to the enemy line and hold them until the enemy is winded. Then you unclick guard.

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That is exactly how I use classical hoplites. I let the enemy tired itself on my shield wall, then I let the hoplites loose and they push through the enemy.

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Originally Posted by King Vasiliyi

I'm currently playing a roman campaign, trying to do so historically, and well I'm trying to do battles the roman style, (checkerboard) has anyone done is successfully before?

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Don't use checkerboard because it doesn't really work in RTW (the units are running everywhere back but not through the gaps). Use three lines instead.

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It seems everysing time I throw my hastati at the enemy line, the enemy engages the hastati and almost destroys the whole formation, by the time I send the princepe in, the hastati are at half strenght and exhausted, (and probably wavering or shaken) am I doing something wrong? Or is this how roman battles were fought everytime? By the time the battle ends, my hastati need to be sent back to rome to be retreaned, (not fun when your campaigning in northern gaul), can anyone offer good advice?

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Yes, that's basiclly how they did it: Throw one line on the enemy and when that one is through throw the next line. I usually pull the Hastati out when they are down to under 100.

And yes, campaigning in some remote places was a problem - not only for the Romans. They often made very much use of locals and mercs in these occasions.

Konny's right.

Once your first line has been engaged for a while, pull them back behind your second. You'll notice that you'll lose a few men as they pull back (it's a shame you can't have them walk backwards so they don't turn their back on the enemy), but that is to be expected. In the end, you'll lose a lot more by not pulling them back.

As soon as the hastati are disengaged, active "throw javelins" option for your second line. Depending on how tired the enemy is, either hold the line or charge with your principes.

Also, at the beginning of your campaigns with newly raised armies, you will lose more men with new recruits than with veterans. As such, I recommend bringing along an extra unit or two of whatever makes up your first line (in this case, hastati). After the battle use your "reserves" to fill in the casualties. During the battle, keep them far behind the main battle line so they won't be threatened. Usually, I have them guard any archers from flanking maneuvers by enemy cavalry.

By brining your reserves with you, your main battle line will gain experience faster (I think) and you won't need to stop in cities as often to refit.

This is easier if you have a uniform army (say, of marian cohorts or of all classical hoplites) because then you can keep merging the veterans together to create a veteran force, while brining reserves up from the capital.

Here's my question - how does one not get surrounded when you deploy in three lines?

(it's been a while since I played Romans - with the Hellenes I just draw my pike lines thin)

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Originally Posted by mrtwisties

Here's my question - how does one not get surrounded when you deploy in three lines?

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When your cavalry is not able to protect the wings you are Canneaed. On the other hand, you still have the Triarii who can flank everyone from the third line who is flanking you - they are in particular lethal to cavalry in a pitched fight.

Moreover, if you are concerned about being flanked, the conventional wisdom is to shorten your line and increase your depth. Putting your army in three lines rather than one has this same effect.

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Originally Posted by mrtwisties

with the Hellenes I just draw my pike lines thin)

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Generally, I think about depth more than length. Maybe I'm wrong in that regard. It seems that infantry is more capable of withstanding a charge if they have more mass (that is, more depth). But if the line is thin (only 3 or 4 men deep), then the enemy can easily punch through, disorganize the line, and cause a mass route rolling up the remainder of the line.

Of course, for the contrary position, see the Battle of Cannae; Hannibal had a pretty thin line there, and the Romans were very deep.

the good thing about the roman army is that no matter how many men they may lost, your front line hastati won't break. I usually employ a deep 4 or 5 line formation with the Romani: the hastati always suffer most of the casualities, but they allow the other lines to do their job without routing

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Originally Posted by Callicles

Moreover, if you are concerned about being flanked, the conventional wisdom is to shorten your line and increase your depth. Putting your army in three lines rather than one has this same effect.



Generally, I think about depth more than length. Maybe I'm wrong in that regard. It seems that infantry is more capable of withstanding a charge if they have more mass (that is, more depth). But if the line is thin (only 3 or 4 men deep), then the enemy can easily punch through, disorganize the line, and cause a mass route rolling up the remainder of the line.

Of course, for the contrary position, see the Battle of Cannae; Hannibal had a pretty thin line there, and the Romans were very deep.

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Counter a deep formation by double envelopment; counter a double envelopment with superior cavalry.

Or at least this seems to be what history teaches us.

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Originally Posted by mrtwisties

Here's my question - how does one not get surrounded when you deploy in three lines?

(it's been a while since I played Romans - with the Hellenes I just draw my pike lines thin)

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I use AP or Spear "allies" to defend against cavalry. If needed and usually not, I have the triarii and cavalry to follow up. Also I deploy with half unit spaces which gives me width. My formation goes 6-6-2 with the triarii on the flanks.

When deploying the manipular legion, both defensive or offensive, the trick is to deploy the Velites between the maniples of Hastati. When on the defensive, they add a lethal salvo of pila to those thrown by the Hastati. Their skirmish mod will get them out of harm way. Dont wait to long, move in the Principe, they will add more pressure.

When attacking they will shower the enemy as the Hastati and then the Principe attack. Always keep the Triari in reserve, deploy them where needed.

As for the Roman Cavalry, the Equites are only good to persue the enemy while routing. Equites Extra. and the Consular cavalry with the all new Campanian cavalry are much better. At times when facing an enemy with much better cavalry deploy skirmishers with them. When campaigning in the east I usually take Peltastai.

Now here is my consular legion: 5 maniples of Hastati, 5 maniples of Principe, 3 maniples of Triari, 3 to 4 units Velites, 1 Accensi, the rest Cavalry and or allies. For a change I take 2 units of Hastati Samnitici, and two units of Milites Samnitici. Lucanian Light Infantry are taken as support to my cavalry when needed.

Cheers

Thanks a lot, you've all given me some pointers and tips on some things I've done wrong, I've actually used a couple of these strategies and VOILA! My campaign in northern gaul is going so much smoother, I guess I was keeping the hastati engaged way too long, I'm also incorperating locals to fight and using them as my meat wall (a lot of fun to kill gauls with other gauls; it solves both overpopulatuon problem in my gallic cities and creates retrainable units) very handy. Thanks to all who helped

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Originally Posted by konny

Don't use checkerboard because it doesn't really work in RTW (the units are running everywhere back but not through the gaps). Use three lines instead.

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WOW so simple and I didnt think of it... thanks konny thats possibly the biggest help to me yet! (no joke, not insult)

seriously so simple...:bow: :yes:

Hi All,

In earlier Camillian times, deploy in deep formations (5 lines; Hastati, Principes, Triarii, Rorarii, Ascensi). The Romans adopted this formation after many losses (it's a more defensive/conservative approach).

I play in 'Huge' formations, so I start with units 8 men deep, in a quintrex pattern with spacing between the units to fit another unit. As the enemy approaches I pause the game (he says ducking for cover) and expand every unit to '4 men' deep, thereby closing all the holes. As the holes are closing, the Leves are probably skirmishing back through your lines. Thus your are presenting the enemy with a continuous first line of Hastati. The Romans did not fight in checkerboard as it allowed the fluid formations of the Gauls to swarm around the sides of units (bad for morale), but instead used the checkerboard for 'manoeuvring'.

To simulate the 'replacement of lines', I have the Hastati on 'Guard' and as the mass of the enemy (especially heavy cav or naked fanatics) push the Hastati back into the Principe, the second line comes into the equation.

The Triarii were rarely used and the rorarii are a peasant levy (good range with their javelins though), so don't move these guys to the flanks too early in the battle. The ascensi provide useful harassing fire (I think slingers are too effective (didn't want to use the 'over-p..' word) so I limit their usefulness). The cavalry provides flank protection - that's it! - it gives the enemy second thoughts about sneaking around your sides.

My legion consists of FM, 2 Hastati, 2 Principe, 2 Triarii, 2 Rorarii, 1 Ascensi and 1 Leves, and one Romani Equites. Consular armies are just double the legion.

Polybian legions are 3 lines deep; Hastati get pushed into the Principe, with the Triarii waiting refreshed for the inevitable flanking manoeuvre once the enemy is exhausted.

Thus the overall formation looks like one big square. Your units' rear is well protected and the enemy has to batter itself against a well-armoured front. In 'guard' mode, your units tire very slowly, so by the time the enemy is exhausted, it is time to deploy your reserve. Roman armies tended to 'grind the enemy into exhaustion & submission' (no flashy tactics).

So far I've been very successful simulating roman successes (and losses) at appropriate casualty rates. Role-playing is more satisfying than winning at all costs.

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Originally Posted by ajdeignan

Role-playing is more satisfying than winning at all costs.

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I whole-heartily agree with you.

I've had a lot of success with a 3H 2P 1T Polybian legion in the checkerboard, with Hastati in guard. Gauls tend to wrap around the corners of the frontline unit to attack their sides. In the center two gaps, this leaves them with another H to their rear and a fresh Princ to their flank throwing pila and then charging. Hard on the morale. They tend to crack before my hastati do, I let my Princs chase them a little way, and now they are in position to turn back and flank the remaining Gauls on the wings. Triari are held back to deal with cavalry flankers. My cav either chases the routing center or hits the enemy wings in the rear once they turn to face the princs. A velite and slinger out front soften things up, and I use archers in the rear and their flaming arrows to persuade the stubborn that it's time to run.

Obviously this is not going to work so well against phalanxes, who'll keep formation instead of wrapping around my hastati. Polybian anti-phalanx tactical advice would be much appreciated, as my few encounters with Greeks have not been pleasant so far.

^ The Romans are like the Zerg of Starcraft...they are meant to take heavy causalities. Just send full stack after full stack after the enemy and they'll be overwhelmed eventually. This is basically how I play with house rules... lol

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Originally Posted by Pode

Obviously this is not going to work so well against phalanxes, who'll keep formation instead of wrapping around my hastati. Polybian anti-phalanx tactical advice would be much appreciated, as my few encounters with Greeks have not been pleasant so far.

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you have to emply an "oblique battle line", concentrate your forces and exploit the phalanx slowness. The goal is to separate the phalanx units and flank them on 2 sides; the velites can help to soften them up, but only if used on the rear as a mobile force

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Originally Posted by beatoangelico

you have to emply an "oblique battle line", concentrate your forces and exploit the phalanx slowness. The goal is to separate the phalanx units and flank them on 2 sides; the velites can help to soften them up, but only if used on the rear as a mobile force

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So I should keep my same basic deployment scheme and tactics, but arrange my battle line in a slanted refuse left/right line instead of parallel to the enemy's? Stagger my line like \ or / instead of -? Sounds promising, but I think I'll need to increase my first two lines to 3-4 in order to supply enough flankers. The staggered line will mean the chain rout has to start at one end of the line, not the center, so I'll need the extra troops. 2-3 would give the needed arrangement of units, but probably doesn't provide enough frontage to deal with a decent sized army.

When facing a phalanx army, attack the most weak point. For example levies and the classic hoplites. I always outflank with the Principe or Triari, as the later will have been watching for most of the time they will be fresher. The Milites Samnites are also excellent flankers, their slashing swords will reduce the hoplites to pulp. To prevent an army outflanking you, use the skirmishers, like the velites to attract their attention, if possibly with cavalry, attack and retreat and shower them with javlins. Another good tactic to break a hellenic, macedonian or selucid phalanx army is to take your heavy cavalry, which in my consular army I take 2 to 3 units, and attack their general. When he is slain or running away the morale of his army will simply collapse, work done.

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Pode

So I should keep my same basic deployment scheme and tactics, but arrange my battle line in a slanted refuse left/right line instead of parallel to the enemy's? Stagger my line like \ or / instead of -? Sounds promising, but I think I'll need to increase my first two lines to 3-4 in order to supply enough flankers. The staggered line will mean the chain rout has to start at one end of the line, not the center, so I'll need the extra troops. 2-3 would give the needed arrangement of units, but probably doesn't provide enough frontage to deal with a decent sized army.

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yes, keep in mind that in a frontal combat you can't beat a phalanx line, no chance. I usually go first for the more mobile enemy troops (like peltastai, thereuphoroi, levies and so on) and the cavalry if I have the opportunity, and then for the phalanxes when I have a numerical superiority

I've been good keeping the same deployment. Never use non-pila javelins from any direction other than in the back. Never take guard mode off if facing it from the front or sides. Hit it with from behind with assualt infantry with guard off. Be prepared to switch it on if it turns to face you. Then you can also switch guard off for the front line unit that's now facing its rear. Cavalry I only do when its a really worn out phalanx and in wedge formation.

So do you also encounter AI-Romans in Manipular formation? I did only once so far:

Romans at Rhegion 247BC

https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/...artaktipf4.jpg

Checker board works alright. I suspect it will work better in M2TW since that game has problems with unit cohesion. Anyway, as previous posters have mentioned. Form a line with the first row when you get to the field. Put your front line on guard mode. Flank with the guys on the edges and use keep some guys in reserve and you ought to be pretty successful in tiring the enemy out and winning the fight.