Spartans did not throw deformed babies away: researchers

SPARTANS For The Lose!!!

" ATHENS (AFP) - The Greek myth that ancient Spartans threw their stunted and sickly newborns off a cliff was not corroborated by archaeological digs in the area, researchers said Monday.

After more than five years of analysis of human remains culled from the pit, also called an apothetes, researchers found only the remains of adolescents and adults between the ages of 18 and 35, Athens Faculty of Medicine Anthropologist Theodoros Pitsios said.

"There were still bones in the area, but none from newborns, according to the samples we took from the bottom of the pit" of the foothills of Mount Taygete near present-day Sparta.

"It is probably a myth, the ancient sources of this so-called practice were rare, late and imprecise," he added.

Meant to attest to the militaristic character of the ancient Spartan people, moralistic historian Plutarch in particular spread the legend during first century AD.

According to Pitsios, the bones studied to date came from the fifth and sixth centuries BC and come from 46 men, confirming the assertion from ancient sources that the Spartans threw prisoners, traitors or criminals into the pit.

The discoveries shine light on an episode during the second war between Sparta and Messene, a fortified city state independent of Sparta, when Spartans defeated the Messenian hero Aristomenes and his 50 warriors, who were all thrown into the pit, he added."



http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071210...suLGDUNBmOe8UF

Perhaps, they were making kebabs of them instead of wasting kilos of fresh meat?
Would be a rational decision.

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Originally Posted by MiniMe

Perhaps, they were making kebabs of them instead of wasting kilos of fresh meat?
Would be a rational decision.

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Kebab was not invented at that time. Maybe another dish:laugh4:

It will be very difficult for people to accept such evidence... I mean... thi is one of Sparta's Trademarks:thumbsdown:

I thought the myth was that the Spartans let babies that did not meet the cut fend for themselves in the wild. Am I way off base with that idea?

Yes, its called exposure. My Greek History Professor told me this.

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Originally Posted by MiniMe

Perhaps, they were making kebabs of them instead of wasting kilos of fresh meat?
Would be a rational decision.

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bah, persian filth. wouldnt find a real spartan munching on that. a brit though...

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Originally Posted by Decimus Attius Arbiter

Yes, its called exposure. My Greek History Professor told me this.

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Correct.

Ancient greeks used to let all unwanted babies on the garbage dump, outside the polis. There, everyone could come and collect those babies. Most would be raised as slaves and even sold for a profit, while good looking girls would wind up as Hetairai. All the above according to O'Connely, but others confirm it as well.

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Originally Posted by Vorian

Kebab was not invented at that time. Maybe another dish:laugh4:

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Maybe feta and olives? :inquisitive: :juggle2:

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Re: Spartans did not throw deformed babies away: researchers

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Apparently not, and here is the latest evidence:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.qarl.com/qLab/pile/300/SPARTA.jpg

:wink:

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Originally Posted by Rodion Romanovich

Apparently not, and here is the latest evidence:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

http://www.qarl.com/qLab/pile/300/SPARTA.jpg

:wink:

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SO F****** FUNNY!!!! haha.... laughed for 20 seconds!:laugh4:

Two Words

Yahoo News

And...

According to Pitsios, the bones studied to date came from the fifth and sixth centuries BC and come from 46 men, confirming the assertion from ancient sources that the Spartans threw prisoners, traitors or criminals into the pit.

Pitsios didn't say anything about babies in the pit?

This kind of crap has happened to me, I often do not like the media much!

Not all, but many weak-minded-panic-mongers.

These people definitely had a major 'master race' thing happening.. the worlds most glorified Nazis? I also recall my history teachers indicating exposure as the preferred way of removing non master race types from the gene pool.

Maybe more than master race thing? Its all very complex but overall the Spartz lived on the virtual edge. I'm just saying, as an endangered species, physical or mental weakness was a luxury they could ill afford.

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Originally Posted by cmacq

Maybe more than master race thing? Its all very complex but overall the Spartz lived on the virtual edge. I'm just saying, as an endangered species, physical or mental weakness was a luxury they could ill afford.

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Yes, I understand they had some major (self created) problems that meant every day could easily have been the last. Net result is still the same. Is totally destroying many moral/cultural values really worth it to keep your excessive mass of slaves and subjugated races under control? I'm sure there could have been a better option, however they were simply too narrow minded to see them.

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Originally Posted by keravnos

Correct.

Ancient greeks used to let all unwanted babies on the garbage dump, outside the polis. There, everyone could come and collect those babies. Most would be raised as slaves and even sold for a profit, while good looking girls would wind up as Hetairai. All the above according to O'Connely, but others confirm it as well.

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What is Hetairai anyway? Sex slaves maybe?

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Originally Posted by mjmehrer07

What is Hetairai anyway? Sex slaves maybe?

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Greek Geishas.

Or should that be Geishoi? The S&M ones would be Geishoi thorakitai.

Anyway hetairai looks like the feminine form of Hetairoi, or companions, so i imagine it means they were female companions, or very high class prostitutes desired as much for their conversation and good company as their sexual availability.

The term would be "courtesan", I believe.

Another thing to keep in mind is that newborn baby bones are very soft. Also, if not buried straight away they would surely have been scavenged by wild (or not so wild) animals.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

Greek Geishas.

Or should that be Geishoi? The S&M ones would be Geishoi thorakitai.

Anyway hetairai looks like the feminine form of Hetairoi, or companions, so i imagine it means they were female companions, or very high class prostitutes desired as much for their conversation and good company as their sexual availability.

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Hetairos (and female Hetaira) means companion which as we all know, can mean comrade, friend, lover etc

Hetaira was a high class prostitute, much like a Geisha as you say. Pericles was in love with one, Aspasia.

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In ancient Greek society, hetaerae were independent and sometimes influential women who were required to wear distinctive dresses and had to pay taxes. Composed mostly of ex-slaves and foreigners, these courtesans were renowned for their achievements in dance and music, as well as for their physical talents. There is evidence that, unlike most other women in Greek society at the time, hetaerae were educated. It is remarkable that hetaerae not only were the only females who would actively take part in the symposia, but also that their opinions and beliefs were respected by men, possibly due to the importance of pillow talk

Some similarities have been found between the ancient Greek hetaera, the earlier Babylonian Nadītu, the Japanese Oiran, and the Korean kisaeng, complex figures that are perhaps in an intermediate position between prostitutes and entertainers.

Among the most famous were Thargelia, a renowned Ionian hetaera of ancient times Aspasia, long-time companion of the Athenian politician Pericles, Archeanassa companion of Plato, the famous Neaira, and Thaïs, a concubine of Ptolemy, general on the expedition of Alexander the Great and later king of Egypt.

Hetaerae appear to have been regarded as distinct from pornê or simple prostitutes, and also distinguished from mistresses or wives. In the oration Against Neaera, Demosthenes said:


“We have hetaerae for pleasure, pallakae to care for our daily body’s needs and gynaekes to bear us legitimate children and to be faithful guardians of our households.” Nice

In this same oration, Demosthenes mentions that Neaira's purchase price (both at her original purchase by Timanoridas of Corinth and Eucrates of Leucas and her own subsequent purchase of her freedom) was 30 minas. Since the mina was equal to 100 drachmae and the drachma can be thought of as equivalent to the daily wage of a skilled worker, this would make her purchase price over 8 years salary—obviously beyond the means of the average person.

The male form of the word, hetaeros (pl. hetaeroi), signified male companions in the sense of a business or political associate. Most famously, it referred to Alexander the Great's bodyguard cavalry unit (see Companion cavalry).

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Btw, there is an ancient Greek saying, I will give a rough translation

"When the lights are off every woman looks like Lais (famous Corinthian hetaira) :laugh4:

Hetairai is a very, very broad term. Most often it is used as an euphemism for 'courtesan': litteraly it means girlfriend. ('Real' girlfriends, though, are often called philai for the sake of disambiguity.) When the euphemism is nothing more than just that the women are sometimes called "[gunaikes] pornai" which means "prostitutes".

However Hetairai is more often a word used to describe courtesans of similar standing as those in China during for instance the Tang Dynasty.

EDIT: And just in case you were wondering what the pallakae are in the post above mine: the proper Greek transliteration would be pallakai meaning concubines.

Up until somewhat recently, many different peoples disposed of imperfect babies. If there is a baby with a deformity, disease, or mental disablity that prevents it from becomeing a preductive adult, the baby would be a drain on a village that had a very limited amount of resources. If you could tell that a baby would never be able to pull his weight and would risk the lives of others in the village, for the good of the group you would kill said baby.

I'm pretty sure that Geishas aren't and never have been prostitutes of any kind. They are simply professional hostesses. I think the impression they are is a Western myth.

Any Japanese forum members that can back me up?

I was expecting a thread about how instead of babies they threw researchers away who had beliefs different from the state ones.

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Originally Posted by Cyclops

Greek Geishas.
Or should that be Geishoi? The S&M ones would be Geishoi thorakitai.
.

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Originally Posted by Vorian

Hetaira was a high class prostitute, much like a Geisha as you say. Pericles was in love with one, Aspasia.

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Originally Posted by horst nordfink

I'm pretty sure that Geishas aren't and never have been prostitutes of any kind. They are simply professional hostesses. I think the impression they are is a Western myth.
Any Japanese forum members that can back me up?

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horst nordfink, I'm not Japanese but you are correct.

The belief that Geishas are prostitutes is a western myth and the result of ignorance...
Geishas are not prostitutes. Their purpose to provide "non-sexual" entertainment.

did they throw black dudes wearing dashikis into big pits?

*kick.

damn.

madness.

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Originally Posted by horst nordfink

I'm pretty sure that Geishas aren't and never have been prostitutes of any kind. They are simply professional hostesses. I think the impression they are is a Western myth.

Any Japanese forum members that can back me up?

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Not a pro in history but im japanese and your correct:bow:

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Originally Posted by runes

did they throw black dudes wearing dashikis into big pits?

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Yes, but only those who spoke of "madness"

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Originally Posted by Perturabo

totally destroying many moral/cultural values

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Always keep in mind we're the ones that invented those moral/cultural values,
not them. They would have most likely viewed it as a method of crowd control?