Unrelenting Psycho Merchants

I've gotten deep into my Turkish campaign and being off in the far east, I been toying around with Merchants. I have been using them much more than I think I have ever bothered in the past.

Any way I have been getting sick of creating a merchant, sending him off to his destination, only to have his assets seized a few turns later. It was like, as soon as my merchant started a trade route, the AI merchant at a nearby resource would suddenly move to take over my guys assets.

So I ran a little test (or better yet played a little game with the AI). I created a merchant and also a spy and sent the two down to the province which is at the bottom of the map just below Alexandria, which has two resources of Ivory and one resource for Slaves. I put the Spy in between the 3 resources so I could see what was going on and put the merchant on one of the 2 ivory's (which payed a handsome 573 florins with a low XP). A couple of turns later, a Byzantine Merchant appears from the Fog of War and surprise, surprise he heads straight for my guy. So I moved my merchant across to the next resource which was the Slaves, (which was a 2 turn move - being in the middle of the desert) seeing if the Byz Merchant would be happy with the new resource he had just taken over.

But no wait! The Byz merchant picked himself up and went after my guy again! So I made my merchant move again back to the original place, and again the Byz Merchant followed after. Then I moved my Merchant across to the other resource after which took about 4 turns to cover the distance, and again the Byz Merchant followed. I kept doing this until the Byz Merchant died of old age (or of Dehydration!).

I copied this theory across the world and the exact same thing happened everywhere. Now I dont mind micro managing my agents but... Awwww C'Mon! Give me a break, no wonder I didn't mess around with Merchants in the past! It consumes a lot of game time, when I should be marching my armies in to my enemies lands.

I know of the fort exploit and have used it once or twice, but I like to play a game without using exploits. (except for using Archer stakes :clown: )

Well thats my little story, feels much better that I got it off my chest. I am now working on getting all of my Merchant's experience levels up so they don'y get taken over. We'll see what happens.....

Hope every one had a great Christmas and Lets all have a great New Year! :2thumbsup:

Well, you make a lot more cash off of taking over enemy merchants than you do sitting on resources most of the time, so the AI is just pursuing the smartest strategy. Use your own merchants to take his out before they can get to you.

Generally, however, in my experience the AI merchants won't go after player merchants which aren't parked on a resource, with a few exceptions.

:egypt:

As Ramses said, you make money by aquiring other merchants' assests. A lot of money, in fact, so the AI is just being smart. Don't be defensive with your merchants; another merchant comes at you, aquire his ass and watch the florins flow!

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Originally Posted by rossahh

As Ramses said, you make money by aquiring other merchants' assests. A lot of money, in fact, so the AI is just being smart. Don't be defensive with your merchants; another merchant comes at you, aquire his ass and watch the florins flow!

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easier said then done when playing on anything higher then medium difficulty. I've had trained up merchants upwards of lvl8 get aquired by lvl1's on very hard.

Well, Bill Gates must love this merchant behaviour - pursue and take over all smaller parties on the market to achive world domination. Its just capitalism m8.
What most players doesn´t realise is that the more merchants you loose the more you can train which will give you a merchants guild faster and its upgrades. This will allow you to train better merchants and soon you´ll be cranking out 3-5 lv merchants every time. Hard to knock you out now, huh?!
Its the same thing with the rant of the "Popes hounds of hell" killing off your low pious priests. The more you have to produce the more you have to produce the faster you´ll get the Religious guild and its upgrades. Simple evolution IMHO.

The AI merchants apparently have no FOW, they are rapacious, and they usually have incredibly high levels early in the game. I have begun to use them to train my assassins. The fort exploit is no longer available in Kingdoms but you can still put military unit on the resource and load it up with merchants (it is safer to use a trustworthy general). I am beginning to believe that recruiting merchants are a waste of money until turn 50 or more. It seems that I can blitz significantly faster without building them or many other agents.

The AI never seems to go after a merchant that's not on a resource. They certainly go directly after the merchant, as the fog-of-war doesn't seem to affect them; they know exactly where the other merchants are at all times. They do seem to base the decision on the odds. They'll ignore a merchant they don't really have much of a chance of acquiring, in fact they'll clear away if they have too much vulnerability to being acquired by you. If I'm using merchants, I try to protect them until they reach Monopolist, then send them out. With a natural 1-3 in finance, another point from Legal Nouse and potentially one for Financial Training, you're looking at 6-8 finance by the time you start wandering with them. Add in Knowledge of Customs and Graceful Traveller (+1 and +2 respectively) and you can get a very high finance guy with a couple of takeovers.

Nothing can help with the odds changing on higher campaign difficulties. I imagine that just as the auto-resolve calculator for battles is affected by the campaign difficulty, the chances of successful takeover are also affected. Don't play on VH campaign, don't use merchants if you do, or don't complain. That's just how it goes on Very Hard.

It's annoying but livable. I sent out a merchant to the nearest resource and immediately had three acquisition tries on the same turn. Thie first one I acquired, the second one I was acquired, the third one he was acquired. Someone got a pretty good payday.

I absolutly love getting merchants to a high level of finance and then simply hunting other merchants down. it a great way to make money.:2cents:

Does the AI have no FOW or do they simply have spies all over the place? Judging from the number of Thieves Guilds they build (gotten mainly by recruiting spies) it seems they may just spam the map with spies.

Train up your merchants in a safe place, then move the in a pack. Think of them as a wolf pack hunting for prey. ~;)
I have a division of labour within such pack, I have baits and hunters and young wolfs. Obviously you need a few 8 or 9 star merchant, these are the hunters. These clear the field when the pack moves. I have a good number of low level (1-3 star) merchants as baits; finally have a few 4-5 star merchant as young wolves that will be trained into hunters.
I ignore lone resources only interested in feilds like the ones you have near Antioch or Alexandria. Clear the field with your hunters then set up your baits on the frequented positions and set up the youngs on safer positions. The hunters should be waiting near to the baits. Soon enough enemy merchats should be coming hunting down your baits which in turn will be hunted down by your hunters. ~;)
By the time you run out of baits the enemy will run out of merchants (if not you can easily train baits) and you can use your hunters to sit (you can use them to sit if you dont have enough baits anyway, just close enough to the baits). Important thing is to make sure that your youngs grow up into full fledged hunters before your hunters die.

Assassins. I tend to kill enemy merchants. Keep my merchies on resources. I take resources with merchants but kill merchants travelling with assassins.

When I have a half-decent chance to attack an AI merchant, I do the same thing. It can add some rather good Finance stats.

Gentlemen:

Happy New Year from Canada!! I hope this finds you and yours well. As for me, I could complain...yadda, yadda, yadda.

I was playing as Venice over the seekend, and I get the strangest mission to take over the Portuguese merchant's assets on the understanding that he has more than his fair share of KA-CHING!! I question the sense for I kind of wonder if Venice was really all that poor back in the Middle Ages.

Am I being asked to take the Portuguese merchant's assets just for the sake of taking his assets or was Venice really that desperate for cash? I find that every time I try to take over someone, I'm on the losing end of the stick.

My second question would be: How do I make a successful takeover bid?

Live long and prosper, take care and thank you kindly!!

Sincerely yours always,

Indy.

To reply to your first question, don't take anything in the game to be historical... The mission, for example, is given to you simply because it makes "in-game"... Venice at the period was a greater power than Portugal and its merchants were more far-reaching than Portugal could ever hope to be...

To answer your second question, the key to successful merchant buy-offs is training...

You'll have to train your merchants to a level of 5 finance at least to be able to acquire lower skilled merchant (that is level 0 to 2)...

One of the quickest way to train those merchant is having a merchant guild and obtaining a monopoly on a resource or sending them traveling far away to get good traits... Once they have reached a high enough level, taking out enemy merchants will rise their level higher still... and so on so forth...

yes, i also have a recent case of a few Byz. E. /Egyptians that suddenly went crazy and went after my merchants. luckily i only had 3 taken.

the best solution is wiping the fraction out, unfortunately. the 8-hexes-block/kill tactics becomes onerous after a while.

Does anyone know how many turns a merchant has to be sitting on his trade resource before he has the monopoly?

It's random... ish. Every turn your merchants monopolise a resource there is a percentage chance that they will gain a level. By the way, IIRC you are only monopolising a resource if there are two (or more) of the same resource type in the same province, and you have merchants sitting on both of them.

Edit : correction, there seems to be no random element involved - it's 20 turns to get to monopolist level (see below).



Here's a repost of something i wrote ages ago:

More on merchant skill levels
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Natural Skill
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On creation of a merchant, you have:
1/2 chance of skill level 1
1/3 chance of skill level 2
1/6 chance of skill level 3

This is completelty independent of any buildings etc you may have


Merchant's Guild effects
------------------------
If the player has a master merchant's guild, or a guild HQ anywhere in their empire, then all created merchants get skill bonuses:

Master Guild : Merchants Guild Trained Trait : +1 Skill
Guild HQ : Merchants Guild Member Trait : +2 Skill


Legal/Shady Dealer Traits
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On creation of a merchant, if the settlement has a town hall or better, there is a chance of the merchant having the legal dealer trait:
1/2 chance of no trait
1/3 chance of skill +1
1/6 chance of skill +2

The inverse of this is, if the settlement does NOT have at least a town hall in it, the merchant instead has a chance of aquiring the shady dealer trait:
1/2 chance of no trait
1/3 chance of skill -1
1/6 chance of skill -2


Religious Merchant Trait
------------------------
On creation of a merchant, if a cathedral or better is present at the settlement, then there is a chance of the merchant aquiring this trait:
1/2 chance of no trait
1/3 chance of skill -1
1/6 chance of skill -2


Monopolist Trait
----------------
Every turn that your merchant monopolises trade in a region then the value of this trait is increased.

Value 5 to 9 -> Skill +1
Value 10 to 19 -> Skill +2
Value 20 or more -> Skill +3


Aquisition Skills (good merchant trait)
---------------------------------------
For every successful aquisition your merchant makes, this value goes up by 1

Value 1 -> Skill +1
Value 2 to 3 -> Skill +2
Value 4 to 7 -> Skill +3
Value 8 or more -> Skill +4


Failed Aquisitions (bad merchant trait)
---------------------------------------
For every unsuccessful aquisition attempt by your merchant, there is a 1/3 chance that the value will go down by 1 (this is tied to the good merchant trait above).

Value -1 to -2 -> Skill -1
Value -3 to -5 -> Skill -2
Value -6 or less -> Skill -3

Dont worry too much about the bad merchant trait - if youve failed enough aquisitions in a row to get a significant value to this trait, chances are your merchant will have been eliminated in the process. In order to get skill -3 your merchant will have had to fail 18 (on average) consecutive attempts, and yet not have been eliminated - pretty unlikely.


Making Enemies
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Every time your merchant performs a successful aquisition mission, they have 25% chance of increasing the value of this trait.

Value 1 or 2 -> Personal Security -1
Value 3 to 5 -> Personal Security -2
Value 6 or more -> Personal Security -4

In theory this makes more highly skilled merchants easier to assassinate - in practice this will probably just cancel out some of the effects of the skill level rise itself.


Surviving Aquisitions (secure merchant trait)
---------------------------------------------
Every time your merchant survives an aquisition attempt by another merchant, they have a 50% chance of gaining an increase in the value of this trait.

Value 1 or 2 -> Skill +1
Value 3 or more -> Skill +2


Surviving Assassinations
------------------------
Every time a merchant survives assassination, they have a 50% chance of increasing the value of this trait

Value 1 or 2 -> Personal Security +1
Value 3 or more -> Personal Security +2, Finance -1

Note the -1 to finance. If you repeatedly attempt assassinations on enemy merchants they will eventually lose 1 finance. However, i'm not sure it's really worth the effort.


Worldly Merchant Trait
----------------------
Trading a resource far away from your capital (distance >= 40) has a 20% chance to increase the value for this trait each turn.

Value 1 or 2 -> Skill +1
Value 3 or more -> Skill +2


Self Serving Merchant
---------------------
If your merchant is very far away from your capital (distance >= 60) then he has a 3% chance every turn of increasing the value of this trait.

Value 1 or 2 -> Skill -1
Value 3 or more -> Skill -2

Moral : dont let your merchants get too far from your capital, unless its really worth it for the money.


Ancillaries
-----------
There are 3 merchant ancillaries, each of while can only be obtained at initial creation of the merchant, and each of which gives +1 to finance skill.

Counterfeiter - 15% chance to obtain this if the settlement where the merchant is trained has an Alchemists Lab

Merchant Clerk - 50% chance to obtain this if the settlement where the merchant is trained has an Alchemy School or greater

Trick Abacus - 5% chance to obtain this if the settlement where the merchant is trained has a Town Hall or greater (note - this trigger occurs twice in v1.1 - so this probably increases the chances to around 10%)


Notes
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w.r.t. the Legal Dealer Trait mentioned by Foz above -
this trait seems to be bugged in that it seems to be impossible to get the second level of the trait (trigger adds 1 to make a total of 2, but the threshold is 3)

There is a trait series called 'Exotic Tastes' mentioned in the game textfiles, which gives penalties to finance skill and personal security. However, i havent found any triggers listed for this trait.


Caveat: all of the above stuff is (i think) from vanilla 1.0 of the game. Some stuff may have been tweaked in the patches.

One small correction, Davy. You do not have to have merchants trading both identical resources to earn points toward monopolist; there simply has to be no foreign merchant trading the other resource. As long as you keep them away you can earn the trait with a single merchant.

Wow, never knew that Quillan, thanks. Is it correct that it's limited to territories with 2 identical resources?

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Originally Posted by Quillan

One small correction, Davy. You do not have to have merchants trading both identical resources to earn points toward monopolist; there simply has to be no foreign merchant trading the other resource. As long as you keep them away you can earn the trait with a single merchant.

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I can confirm this for sure for even checked in my last few turns as France...

As far as I know. There's nothing in the files that tells you anything; I just know from observation. Start a campaign as England, create a merchant in London first thing, and send him to the sheep in Nottingham just north of London. 5 turns later he'll have Capitalist. But once as Byzantium I stuck a new merchant on the wine in Rhodes, and he never got the trait before he died of old age. It has to be 2 resources in the province.

yeah, merchants seem way imbalanced...i mean a lvl 5 or 6 merchant has only a 20% or less chance of successfully acquiring a lousy lvl 2 or 3 merchant, but that same lvl 2 or 3 AI merchant nearly always acquires my lvl 4 or 5 guild trained merchants...yeah right...the AI cheats. period, end of story

c'mon CA, why include a feature if the player can't ever get it to work. I understand making the game challenging, but this is just ridiculous. I don't even bother with merchants anymore

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daveybaby

Religious Merchant Trait
------------------------
On creation of a merchant, if a cathedral or better is present at the settlement, then there is a chance of the merchant aquiring this trait:
1/2 chance of no trait
1/3 chance of skill -1
1/6 chance of skill -2

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Does this include Mosques, for the Islamic factions?

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Originally Posted by Kansas Bear

Does this include Mosques, for the Islamic factions?

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Doesnt look like it from the textfiles. The trigger is specifically >= cathedral, which doesnt include the mosque line of buildings. For that matter, i dont think it will occur for orthodox factions either, since the orthodox equivalent is cathedral_o - actually a completely different building, even though it's still called a cathedral in game.

And there doesnt seem to be an equivalent trait for the muslim/orthodox merchants.

So, catholic only then.

I always play H/H and have pretty decent success using merchants as Spain, Sicily, Byzantine Empire and the Turks. With the French and English the wine resources in france seemed to provide the most bang for the buck and chance of monopolist. However the unrelenting psycho merchants mentioned by the OP had field days with my merchants.

So in came strategy #2.

Assassins. A skill 3 assassin generally has 95% success rates against all merchants. 2 of them were able to keep western europe clear of any rough competition.

The AI merchants may get an advantage on H or VH but I doubt it is very much, maybe 20%. A level 5 merchant probably has a 60-70% chance of acquiring a level 3. IIRC if they have the same skill, the 'attacker' has 40% chance. Your observation of every AI merchant defeating yours almost every time is a classic symptom of gamblers (players of games with random elements). Very common among poker and backgammon players. Google "FIBS random dice" and read the thousands of complaints from backgammon players who swear up and down that the dice are rigged against them, or that too many doubles are rolled, etc etc. People make the same complaints about GNUBG (a backgammon trainer/analyzer) but it is OPEN SOURCE and anyone can view the dice code and see that it is in fact random. Also, the definition of a good backgammon player is one who creates positions where the largest portion of the 36 possible rolls are good for them, and the smallest portion is good for their opponent, thus making them seem luckier because the good player might have 18 rolls that they can use effectively, and their opponent only has 5. Next turn comes and 50% of the time the good player 'gets lucky' because they made 'the roll' that allows them to hit some blot, make some point, escape some back man, when in fact they set their checkers up to be able to do any one of those several things depending how the dice fell. I am rambling WAY off topic, so.....

To the point - the human mind likes to play tricks on you when it comes to random events, remembering all the times when you had stressful emotions due to a bad run of luck, and forgetting all the 'normal' times and good runs. I'm not saying its not possible the AI doesn't cheat, but if it does, it is a set advantage and not "the AI wins 90% of the time no matter what"

Sorry about the ramble.

To acquire Monopolist line traits you must have 2 identical resources in province, but if other one of them is used by foreing merchant, then you don´t get the points.
That´s why France is excellent: there are lots of wine and within province they´re all under 1 turns reach, and some visible without watchtowers.
So you need 2 same resources, and be only merchant within province to trade that resource.