Gallic "Naked Fanatics"

Has anyone tried to take Segesta as the Roman Empire, it is seriously hard considering the rebels have those Gallic Naked Fanatics, I am playing the unit count of huge and they cut through your troops like a knife through butter. I have read a few articles on this forum about them, where many people say they are not overpowered, well on huge I think it is almost impossible to defeat them especially in confined spaces like a siege battle. The problem being that the AI can keep them whereever he wants and they will win the battle because you have to go through lines of Gallic Spearmen before they can get into the city. If they deploy the Fanatics at the point where you are entering then that is it because your other troops can offer no resistance.

My problem with the unit is not that they are so hardy, I do not believe this to be a problem and having read about them I know that the majority of them were off their heads while they were fighting, but should this make them more ridicously effective killing machine, maybe they can last longer in battle, because they have more valour and do not care about what may happen to them, but does negate the fact that if they charged with several units of hardened Roman troops that they should not be killed in some numbers.

I think this may be point that needs to be rethought, to maybe keep the longevity in battle and the fact that they don't flee when facing overwhelming odds but perhaps lower the damage they can cause. I could understand how say an elite unit when facing the enemy can kill many units and not run when facing many unit as long as they are in front of them because they are highly organised into the phalanx formation. It seems that the Fanatics do not have such an organisation which would lead me to believe while they may be brave and nutters when on the field of battle, when they get stabbed through the chest then they go down like the best of em'

I have found fighting them increasingly frustrating because firing missiles at them is not hugely effective and then using any type of unit in melee is pure suicide.

My question is, where they really this good, or does not need to be rethought, I mean they can rip through two or three principes units in record time, history tells us that when in battle they did lost major battles to the Roman without overwhelming losses to the Romans.

Anyway what are your thoughts?

I've fought them, almost every EB player fought them, and actual Romans/Macedonians/Seluecids fought them.

trust me they're not unbeatable, you just need orginazation. Also let them sally out. Dont attack first, stay there until there is no choice but for them to fight, have 2 units of infantry attack and hit them over and over with cav.

try using samnites as they are tuff troops, and triarii in case your not sure about how your army would fair against them. Oh and did I mention cav?

but let the infantry do most of the work as you know by now cav dies quickly in a melee.

Most inmportant-starve them out, be defender.

In fact be defender in almost all you seiges, that what I did and historically true (because it works, there generals moral should be low).

Gaesatae are very strong (they have two hit-points), but they are not unbeatable.

Give them a good dose of missiles during the approach, pin them from the front with a unit in guard-mode, and attack them in the rear, with a cavalry charge, or with a unit that has a precursor weapon to throw before contact.

Once they have lost that extra hit-point, they can die like any other unit.

I think they are a great unit type - if they are present, then you need to think hard about how to deal with them, and oh the joy when you finally see those naked butts heading for the hills!

You might also want to try TWFanatics mod here. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94341 he reduces their armor from 5 to 3

Missiles kill them fast; its just that they have two hp so the initial volleys may seem ineffective. They are surprisingly easy to beat actually. Break multiple holes into the enemy walls, and then just bring in the triarii facing them perpendicular to the wall, making sure to cover their backs. Now those suicide Gauls will go beat on your triarii, convieniently exposing their unshielded backs to you. Just unload with missiles at this point. If you somehow run out of missiles or whatever, just try to defeat the rest of their army first. Remember to break multiple holes so you can be flanking them always.

If you are playing with fatigue on, after a while the Gaesatae would simply be too exhausted to be beating your men, so you can feed them hastati, leves, or rorarii after a while. Just start with Triarii unless you really have too many units of Hastati. Also, remember that Gaesatae just kind of sucks against any heavily armoured infantry, since their damage comes not so much from their attack rating but rather their lethality, and their scare effect isn't so significant against those high morale armoured guys.

Hit them in the back with your pila and slingers and they'll die fast enough. Also, I might add that the Camillian Romans aren't "hardened troops" - they're farmers.

Hi Nicco,

I have played and replayed my Romani EB campaign so many times I've lost count (I've tried other factions but I just can't leave my beloved legions). I conquer the independent cities up north using only '10-unit' legions, thus I adopt the 'starve them out' principle.:skull:

The benefits are that the enemy units are smaller in size (handy when they start with 14 units and you have only 10), and they are attacking YOU. This is advantageous because you can sit there with guard mode on, and let him fatigue himself while you stay fresh (Romani troops aren't great fighters, but have excellent staying power).

I turn fire-at-will off for all but my front line Hastati (they will be involved in hand-to-hand by the time the Naked fanatics turn up, so they won't be able to fire). As soon as the nude dudes set foot outside the walls, fire your slingers at them. As soon as they get within range of your Principe, Rorarii, Leves; turn on fire-at-will and throw everything at them.

I have one equite unit and my general in my 10-unit legion, so they stay in reserve until the battle is well and truely engaged (and the enemy is becoming exhausted), before they strike. I've probably lost a lot of Hastati by this stage, but at least my army isn't tired. My horsemen should aim for the enemy skirmisher cav, to try and establish cavalry superiority. Once you have this, you can charge and retreat as much as you like without having to worry about enemy cav trapping you in melee. Don't charge the naked fanatics because they won't rout from charges in their rear, but instead aim for the weaker units and try to develop a massed rout (one rout leads to more and more). Once the whole independent army (minus the fanatics) is routing, then surround the fanatics and finish them off with 'refreshed' heavy infantry.

Hopefully by this stage, your fresh cavalry can run down the stragglers all the way to the town square. Make sure you finish off the fanatics before they reach the town square, otherwise with the extra morale bonus in the square, they'll be a pain to finally kill off.

Hope this helps.

The best way to deal with the northern italy armies is get a quite large army (13-15 full strenght units), siege them and let them starve. Just let the siege go on and if their strenght is not greatly superior to yours they won't sally until the last turn. When they finally sally they will be weakened and perfectly beatable.
In the actual battle the best way to deal with the gaesatae, as already said, are loads of javelins on the back. I find the greek peltastai especially useful in these situations, but also the roman leves can be good. Bear always in mind that in 1vs1 combat the gaesatae will always will, so after the javelins you have to encircle them with 2-3 units. When encircled and weakened by the javelins they die and rout as every other unit; the only real problem is when 2 of them charge in the same zone of the battle, or attack an isolated unit, in this situations make sure to use the "rally troops" ability of the general or your units will probably break and flee.

You can also beat them by throwing gold at them, it took me around 35,000 pieces of gold to bring the settlement under my control :clown:

Thanks a lot for your responses. You see in Vanilla and most other mods you can just siege attack to victory. It's kinda cool that the only way you can win this battle is to starve them out!

Most people have said to pin them with Triarii, but I have found they die quite easily, generally and conventionally how I play I use the hastati and principes if needed to pin enemy and then use the triarii to protect my flanks from cavalry attack. If the enemy are stupid enough to use their cav to attack a point on the flanks, the triarii will cut them down, leaving them able to the sally behind the enemy lines and crash into the back of the enemy, together with my cavalry who i use to sweep up any missile troops. So woudl you recommend I put the triarii in the centre of the lines or target them wherever the Gaestae attack.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Wolfman

You might also want to try TWFanatics mod here. https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=94341 he reduces their armor from 5 to 3

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Or just edit it yourself in the EDU file if you don't want the extra goodies.

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Originally Posted by Adementos

Hit them in the back with your pila and slingers and they'll die fast enough. Also, I might add that the Camillian Romans aren't "hardened troops" - they're farmers.

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Yes pila and slingers will chew them up. Use cavalry as well, gaesatae are relatively weaker against cavalry than infantry. You can surround them with infantry and they still won't break. Macedonian phalanxes can crush any barbarian infantry as long as you protect their vulnerable flanks.

Also, good point about the Roman militia army.

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Originally Posted by Lord Nicco

Thanks a lot for your responses. You see in Vanilla and most other mods you can just siege attack to victory. It's kinda cool that the only way you can win this battle is to starve them out!

Most people have said to pin them with Triarii, but I have found they die quite easily, generally and conventionally how I play I use the hastati and principes if needed to pin enemy and then use the triarii to protect my flanks from cavalry attack. If the enemy are stupid enough to use their cav to attack a point on the flanks, the triarii will cut them down, leaving them able to the sally behind the enemy lines and crash into the back of the enemy, together with my cavalry who i use to sweep up any missile troops. So woudl you recommend I put the triarii in the centre of the lines or target them wherever the Gaestae attack.

Cheers

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You don't, by any chance, play on H or VH battle difficulty. If you do this entire conversation is moot. H and VH battle difficulty skews the stats so much that the game becomes unbalanced. EB is meant to be played Medium battle difficulty.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Foot

You don't, by any chance, play on H or VH battle difficulty. If you do this entire conversation is moot. H and VH battle difficulty skews the stats so much that the game becomes unbalanced. EB is meant to be played Medium battle difficulty.

Foot

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No I play on medium, medium but see the problem I have been having is that this town Segesta is full of troops. I mean sure the majority of their troops are at best average but they can hold in their against Roman infantry but the AI will sometimes hold the Gaestae back, and within a minute my front line is routing wildly.

Use a full stack, keep the Triarii in guard mode, kill the naked savages with slings, or go get some Kretan Mercs.

The best weapon against them are slingers & archers. Use them effectively !!!

Prince

id like to point out that one on one Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi (Elite Thracian Infantry) can beat naked fanatics and all other units ive put up against them. i think its cause of their "effective against armor" trait. anyone can get these guys and they are cheaper than greek levy phalaxmen.

This is what I did. I conquered the southern part of the boot first with my faction leader and the best troops I had. By the time I started attacking Segesta and the other towns near the top I had a hardened legion or two. In addition, you do not need to conquer a town in one attack. Do a follow up attack the next season and finish the town off. I use 30-minute battles, so even with reinforcements the timer would run out in well-defended towns like those. The battle of attrition is a foolproof way to beat the AI 100 percent of the time. Unless, of course, you do not know how to reinforce you legions correctly.

:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Lord Nicco

No I play on medium, medium but see the problem I have been having is that this town Segesta is full of troops. I mean sure the majority of their troops are at best average but they can hold in their against Roman infantry but the AI will sometimes hold the Gaestae back, and within a minute my front line is routing wildly.

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have infantry on guard mode and fire at will on. Next step, dont put non experience troops to attack, and dont fear them.

I play on hard and have had no trouble countering gaesatae since I learned to respect their power.

EB is meant to be played on medium, but the Artificial Stupidity makes it dull.

I'll throw my two cents in ...:2cents:

After many a campaign, I have to say I developed a strategy so similar to Ajdeignan (how DO you say that anyway?!?) that I won't bother repeating anything he has already said. If it makes you feel better, we have all had our nether regions handed to us when first encountering these naked nuts (pun intended). :wall:
It is the mark of a good general who can adapt his tactics to counter these juggernauts. My parting comments are this only ... javelins and flanking attacks.
Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Lord Nicco

So woudl you recommend I put the triarii in the centre of the lines or target them wherever the Gaestae attack.

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The best deployment for a mixed force like the Camillan Romans is:

Spear (Principes) - Sword (Hastati) - Phalanx (Triarii) - Phalanx (Triarii) - Sword (Hastati) - Spear (Principes)

Set the Triarii (but not the Principes!) to guard mode on. You may also edit the Hoplites units to short_pike or use TWFanatic's mod (see link above) to have a real Hoplites' phalanx.

When the enemy attacks your center, even with phalanx, he will be pinned by the Triarii. The swordfighters can now attack the flanks of the enemy, what is in particular usefull when the enemy center is made of spear- or pike-units. Any cavalry that is trying to flank you is encountered by your spearmen. Principes are a comperable expensive, but very successfull, unit for this position. Even Rorarii can do the job.

Place Leves behind the Triarii and the enemy will be showered with javelins on every position he will attack you. Save for the very left of your line, the Gaesatae will also have to stand a salvo of AP Pila on their (unshielded) right side. You should place Accensi on your very left in an angle to the enemy line of approach.

Almost everything above is all well and good as you want pick the time and place of battle. Also always try to force the weaker force to attack you. Yet, in the end it’s important to rapidly reset the opening deployment of your army. Typically, it will open with a long linear alignment of about two units in rank. You may want to quickly redeploy to a relatively compact square formation with massed and angled Accensi wings as Konny says above.

Beware the late arrival of the barbar horse on either of your flanks.

Overall this compact formation will provide mutual support for all your units and the shortened interior lines make the concentration of your horse for a counter-attack or the 'coup de grace' relatively easy. In addition, this type of formation will force the barbars to proceed in their attack along predicable lines of advance, thus well-funneled into your missile kill box.

And...
most importantly remember Rodgers 30th rule, show no mercy, and 'woe to the vanquished.'

I just started a new campaign with the Romani and had a tough time with them in my seige of Segesta. All I did was retreat from the battle once my army was down to about half strength and retrain them, only to return a few turns later and finish off their already depleted army. You don't have to win every battle.

Well, they are VERY hard enemies in EB, especially when you play as Romani.

In history, so called "Naked Fanatics" were great threat to Roman Legions.

The best way to fight them is to make them tired and then use Peltests or Archers.

I am currently conquering Gallic regions as expedition and encountering many naked fanatics. What i do it i deploy a mercenary light infantry to fight those naked fanatics as a bait and then they get exhausted, i used Velites to volley jevellins. :laugh4:

I just pin them in place with my hastati and encircle them with other hastati, principes, or my italic allies. Usually though when the enemy's other units start to route so do the the naked fanatics once they have sustained 30% casualties.

When last I took Sagesta I pinned them with Rorari (2 units against 2 of gaestasae) Then I used my merc gallic light cavalry and equites to shred them to pieces... Oh all my units in fire at will also helped as those guys took some volleys before connecting.


Cheers...

I don't try to develop specific tactics to counter the Gaesatae. Every campaign, I get a legion destroyed in Segesta, take it back and retrain it, then charge again screaming for revenge.
Of course the town gets razed to the ground afterwards.

Fight in echelon and you will win and you'll be fighting closer to how the legions did historically. Given how EB gives most of the rebel settlements 8 star generals you are not going to beat them one on one, man to man.

Once they're exhausted they will break.

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Originally Posted by gosam

I don't try to develop specific tactics to counter the Gaesatae. Every campaign, I get a legion destroyed in Segesta, take it back and retrain it, then charge again screaming for revenge.
Of course the town gets razed to the ground afterwards.

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Brilliant strategy! If only we had thought of it before.

Tou could counter nakedness with even mroe nakedness though I'm not sure about the mercenary opporunities in hte Po Valley.