Tessarakonteres

I was watching this epsode of "Ancient Discoveries" on the History Channel the other day. It featured some very impressive shipping models that were in use 2000-3000 years prior. The one that caught my eye was dual-hulled "Forty", supposedly named for the number of oars at its banks, that was constructed during the reign of Ptolemy IV. It was also said to be the only ship of its type, and was only ever used as an exhibitionary piece, given how expensive it must have been to construct. I haven't been able to play E.B. in months, so my memory of ships in that game is a little hazy. So I was wondering if the fabled "Tessarakonteres" will be included in the game in the future. If the answers no, then fine. Just please don't jump down my throat in reply like quite a few people here have in the past.

I think such type of ship is represented by the Huge Polyremes.~:) (Naui Megistoi I think)

Erm. Well.

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Biggest of all was the 40 built by Ptolemaios IV at the end of 3rd century. It was probably a catamaran design as the ship was reported to have 2 prows, 2 sterns and 4 steering oars. It was 429 feet long, 58 feet wide, powered by 4000 oarsmen and could accommodate 2900 mariners (enough crew to man 12 Pentereis!) and a vast assortment of catapulta. The oaring arrangement is uncertain, with some claiming that oars were used on both sides of the hulls, others only the outer. The first would have meant 8-7-5 on each side while the second offers the possibility of either 16-14-10 or 8+8-7+7-5+5 (push+pull).

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From some old copy of export_units_txt wasting its time on my hard drive.

-EDIT: Almost correct: Nees Megistai.

Yeah, I remember now. Nees Megistai.

Btw, about that unit. Wouldn't it be plausible that the unit didn't have 52 ships like most fleets do? The upkeep of 36,000 mnai per year makes it... uh... unique. But if it had only, let's say, 30 ships. the upkeep would be "only" about 5,000 a turn. If the player wanted more of those pieces he could just build more fleets.

IMHO...... this would be more of a wonder....than a unit when built. Exerting some influence on unrest and trade in the area local to its build.....and offsetting its running costs

also .... the number of oarsmen and crew (4000/2900) on a ship 400 feet long!

...doesn't this seem a little high? I would have thought 10 oarsman per foot of boat a little ambiguous? Octoreme maybe? :)

it had forty oarsmen per...horizontal oar-space? I really don't know how to describe it for somebody who doesn't get the basic concept of tri-/tetr-/pent-/hex-/hept-/etc-eres. So with forty oarsmen we get an average of about 1.2 metres horizontally between oars, which is reasonable (in practice there would have been slightly less space between oars, since the oars wouldn't have come up to the actual prow and stern).

And in practice there'd been quite a few fellows working one oar, for that matter. 'S going to take a lot of horsepower to make a ship that big move anywhere - the 16th-century galeasses weren't even remotely as massive, and were universally noted to tax their rowing-gangs to the limit merely maneuvering at a pace regarded as sluggish even by the standards of big galleys.

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Originally Posted by Thaatu

Btw, about that unit. Wouldn't it be plausible that the unit didn't have 52 ships like most fleets do? The upkeep of 36,000 mnai per year makes it... uh... unique. But if it had only, let's say, 30 ships. the upkeep would be "only" about 5,000 a turn. If the player wanted more of those pieces he could just build more fleets.

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You don't understand. That would defeat the purpose of ships in EB, which is to be pointless lines on documents which slow down your computer and drain your coffers. :egypt:

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Originally Posted by TWFanatic

You don't understand. That would defeat the purpose of ships in EB, which is to be pointless lines on documents which slow down your computer and drain your coffers. :egypt:

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Ooh, we got a rebel.

To be fair, the giant polyreme was just a show-off piece. Is there any evidence that one was used in a battle?

They were meant to impress people (as it says in the description), not fight. It's a royal yacht, more or less. Not just for Greeks either, didn't Caligula have two built?

For them to have any realistic portrayal in the game, they shouldn't act as military units, but instead influence happiness in nearby provinces, improve diplomatic relations (awe) and maybe affect troops morale nearby. But I don't think that is possible, so what they are mainly in game is a way to burn money to reduce corruption.

Depends what you mean by "Giant Polyreme". If you mean any ship bigger than a pentere, then you are mistaken. During the Hellenestic era, ships such as hexereis, heptereis, etc, became fairly common and were definately used in battle, although the pentere remained the main line-of-battle ship. To take an example, in Memnon's history of Herakleia, we hear that during the war between Ptolemaios Keraunos and Antigonos Gonatas, the Herakleian fleet (which fought on Keraunos' side) was made up of "Hexereis, pentereis, un-decked vessels and an octere". The latter, probably the flagship, had (according to Memnon) 1600 oarsmen (making her one hundred oars in length--that's alot!) and 1200 soldiers and mariners on the decks, and two helmsmen; Memnon states that this ship was the most effective during the naval battle. He may be exagerating the ship's complement, but I don't see why we should refuse to believe that the polis of Herakleia Pontika had her very own "super-ship", which actively participated in at least one naval battle, and was very much intended for war as well as for show.

Well if you'd trust Ploutarchos, then yes, we do have some evidence. Same discription. Also, with pentereis being the higher end of the main bulk of any serious fleet I'd imagine there were at least a few bigger types of ships to function as a spearhead; and 'lesser' flagships. Those, would, of course, be actively used during naval battles.

Also, Herakleia is IIRC not exactly your average polis. Fairly powerful on it's own, and certainly one of the more active 'factions' in the Bithynian field.

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Originally Posted by Maeran

For them to have any realistic portrayal in the game, they shouldn't act as military units, but instead influence happiness in nearby provinces, improve diplomatic relations (awe) and maybe affect troops morale nearby. But I don't think that is possible, so what they are mainly in game is a way to burn money to reduce corruption.

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My original plan was to give trait to faction leader when Huge Poliremes are built. But it was shown that there is no way to detect what units player built.
And there is too few buildings available to make "big ship" one.

Unit that is in game is composed from ships bigger than pentere with some huge ships (for ex over decere) serving as flagships. This is also true for all other fleets - bulk of the unit is what the name suggest, plus some bigger as flagships.

In EB "ship" is not a one hull - its a squadron of around 25 ships.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Also, Herakleia is IIRC not exactly your average polis. Fairly powerful on it's own, and certainly one of the more active 'factions' in the Bithynian field.

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Not your average polis, but nowhere near as powerful as the main Hellenistic powers. More like one of the lesser Anatolian dynasteai, with laoi working the land and all. Although at the time of the conflict between Keraunos and Gonatas, Herakleia was in bad shape after Arsinoe had given the polis a rough handling--IIRC at that point they'd lost all their towns and almost all their territory. The big ships may have been built during the rule of Amestris or of Dyonysos, though, when the polis was at the height of her power.

Also, regarding the Herakleian octere, if the number of rowers was indeed 1600, then she was uncommonly long--something that would have made it easier for her to advance at speed, although she would have likely handled like a pig and possibly had some stability issues into the balance.