Creative use of units

I'm looking for examples of creative use of units that worked (or not) in any kind of battle against the AI or a human rival. For example,as an attacker, i sometimes use nagitana in an offensive role (too pin down the center of the AI battle line). It works well except against an army composed mostly of cavalry (the less cavalry, the better it works) and except in winter (OH, did i ever get pounced). It even works good against WM , with the nagitana having some moral and armor upgrades. Depending of the size of the armies on the battlefield , I Send 2 to 4 groups of nagitana walking right smack in the middle of the battle line, putting them in hold formation when contact is made. They attrack a lot of attention from the AI SA and any unit that is nearby, they become usually vastly outnumbered and that is just fine.... Because while they were slowly advancing to they're point of contact: 1. my SA follow at a safe distance on hold fire, and start raining arrows with usually nearly complete impunity in the middle of the pack, when the nagitana make contact, selectind those nice, juicy, targets first (WM or ND if available). 2- the rest of my army moves too attack in any kind of flanking position, depending on the situation. Now you must all have an example of discoveries/experimenting that you can share , don't matter if it worked or not......................PLEASE FEED ME THANK YOU

It wasn't my idea, but, someone came up with using the Daimyo to rush a defended bridge, having him cross and run to a flank away from the enemy. The enemy follows and this allows a virtually unopposed crossing for the rest of the army.



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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

I'll have to try that one out.

It works! I did it early in the shimazu clan on that first imagawa river, most of the daiymos guard get decimated. I had my yaris attack his only 1 yari whilst my (eventually lone daiymo plowed into his archers taking many heads) My yari broke his and I won the day with hardly any causalities the daiymos guard of course always renew! Since then I have been using my daiymo a lot more early on. I have been doing this ever since I heard a story on the forum about an AI daiymo who anhilated an archer unit. Also I regularly check the log files to see how many kills my daiymo gets.

You can use the daimyo unit to waste arrows on a bridge assault. The Daimyo always seems to be the last to die, so charging him onto the bridge and off again

a) waste enemy arrows
b) tempts the enemy spearmen into rangeo f your archers, who of course deploy much closer to the bridge than the ai ever has the sense to.

If the daimyo gets caught he can ussually hold his own until you can send support

Note this only works early in the game when there aren't too many archers on the other side of the bridge http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif.

Also if it rains in MP and you've got guns, occaisionally forming them into wedges and marching them off down the side of the map fools people into thinking you're trying to flank with rather more useful infantry. If they have the sense to move the cursor over them ofcourse your cunning plan is foiled http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif, but a surprising number of player seem to just redeploy their flanks to meet the terrifying threat of the teppo assualt.

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It's not a bug, it's a feature

I hate river crossings as the attacker, since they really chew up troops, but here is a creative tactic that I have used when facing large armies of defenders (This has been mostly Ronin)which are made up of all monks and naginata,and few or no archers.

First, your starting army must be about 70% archers. The balance is all YS ir YA Your other armies also have as many archers as you need for balance. Line up your archers with at least two units abreast on each side of the bridge, and send over a troop of YA or YS. As soon as they hit the opposite bank, call them back. Enough defenders will charge so your SA can cut their forces by 15 to 30% every time, and they rarely will pursue accross the bridge due to the archery fire. You have your remaining YS ready just in case.

There are also a couple of river provinces where a jetty or bend in the river will allow you to hammer the defenders even though they are out of range of the archers flanking the bridges. They just stand there and take it. I have eliminated entire units this way. As your SA run out of arrows, right click them and click withdraw from battle. Replace them with fresh SA on the field, and as re-enforcements arrive, keep removing from battle until you get to the archers as replacements. Re-enforcements arrive with cavalry first, infantry second, and archers last. When time runs out you will get a defeat but your score may be 200 to 400 heads taken versus a 0 to 60 loss.

In three successive seasons, I whittled a 1400 man total, Ronin army of all monks and nags down to 550 men. I got impatient and went the usual attack route in the 4th season. I won, but at a cost of 450 men.

Fighting all those monks and nags the normal way from the start would have probably cost me three times as many men, and taken just as many tries. I also use time compression during all this, but you have to keep a watchful eye if case something goes wrong.

Of course only this works when you have multiple armies facing multiple armies that have little or no SA.

I was in the artillery as an F.O. during the unpleasentness, a few years back (1969), in southeast asia, so I love using those SA. (Samurai Artillery)

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.



[This message has been edited by Forward Observer (edited 04-16-2001).]

FO... I'll keep an eye out for those useful river bends from now on..hehe. 1969, eh? That would make you one of the 'old' folks here at the Dojo. Think there might be one really old guy here, too, 60+. Let's hear it for the Geritol crew (includes me, of course..hehe)

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Thank you but don't stop now..... They're must be some more floating out there

I read that some people dont like to use their Daimyo, but I like doing so because his troops are automatically replaced and are usually (for me) around honour 6 to 7. This can pack quite a punch esp during the early game.

When defending a province I only use archers, YS, YA. If my Daimyo is around it gets interesting, esp if the enemy outnumbers me by a lot. I place archers in the middle, YA on the right, YS and Daimyo on left. When the enemy comes near, I shower them with arrows, and if they are the low mobility type my Daimyo goes rushing down the left flank. The AI always turns a large portion to the Daimyo (always) whereby my YA hits them on the rear, YS hits them on the flank, and when they turn to meet these folks my Daimyo charges them from behind. Best score? 300 to 17.

There are many other creative uses of the Daimyo group. Its small and easy to control, relatively fast, and nearby unkillable. I use him to stop YS even while my YA moves to charge from behind.

USE HIM OR LOSE HIM! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Hai, the uses of the daimyô unit are practically limitless. Don't forget, though, that he's still your taishô: if he disappears behind the enemy lines, it will lower your other forces' morale, as there will be hundreds of enemies between them and their commander.

Also, along the lines of Catiline-san's suggestion, sometimes it makes sense to flank with gunners even in clear weather. They're fast (and therefore suitable for running that extra mile), and their morale-shattering effect combined with the flanking bonus can be devastating to low-honor enemy units. They'll need a bodyguard against cavalry or something, though.

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"1. Gi: the right decision, taken with equanimity, the right attitude, the truth. When we must die, we must die. Rectitude."

I've heard a lot about camping on hills and found a cool tactic to smash the archer heavy defender in campaign mode. Keeping a keen eye on his melee units have everyone (in my hill attack army: 6YS, 3WM, 2ND, 3YC, 2SA) I flank with the cav, and have everyone else in loose formation until they engage. I try to approach from the highest ground possible on each flank and send up the YS. They stop at about maximum arrow range to tease the archers. The AI doesn't usually sit still for this long and down come the chargers whom the YS or NA hold at bay until the WM & ND engage. If all goes well, the YC can charge the archers from the flank while they're swing to and fro trying to zap my shock troops. My archers are opportunistic troops usually placed where they can take down the mostest the fastest. Variations on this theme, depending on the circumstance work quite well. Happy hunting!

Ashigaru! Ashigaru!

Team them up one-on-one with a nodachi unit, and you have Monk Killers at a cheaper price! Hide them in the woods. The peasants get nervous, but the no-dachi keep their cool. Send them both forward together - they both are fast-running units, so this team works great against almost any non-cavalry unit.

Have the YA hit the enemy just before the ND. This removes any attacking bonus the enemy had, and will even have his front line being pushed back when the ND hit, which you may remember gives you a serious bonus to kill them! Often, the peasants will panic, but the ND will still charge into the enemy, and ND have big-time charging bonuses! I've sucessfully had 20 out of 60 warrior monks dead in the first moments of combat. 60 ND can kill 40 WM, especially if the YA are still there.

If the YA do panic, ideally they will run a bit, then reform. This allows you to send them charging into the enemy's flank, which will usually rout them by that point. As long as the YA keep their cool (use higher-honor YA!) then this combo is even effective against cavalry units!

The only problems are archer/musket units and naginata. These troops don't have much armor, so keep them hidden until the missle troops have their backs turned. Naginata are tough enough that your troops get tired before they've killed enough nagi's.

-- B)

Another one in which I use is only use your horse archers with heavy or lance cavarly; don't keep them with the main Infantry; use them like you would with tanks (this was what the Mongals used in many ways; which were the same tactics as Rommel used in Africa). So have archers on horse back to give covering fire while you asebale your heavy or lance cavrly units for a forward attack! Works quite well; especially on high ground!

I use a variation on that, double team two No Dachi and stick on a Cav archer unit. Works great for flank attacks, and is fast enough to get out of most trouble, but you need a fair bit of micromanagment or they get eaten when you forget about them http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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It's not a bug, it's a feature

Quote Originally posted by ShaiHulud:
FO... I'll keep an eye out for those useful river bends from now on..hehe. 1969, eh? That would make you one of the 'old' folks here at the Dojo. Think there might be one really old guy here, too, 60+. Let's hear it for the Geritol crew (includes me, of course..hehe)

[/QUOTE]

ShaiHullud:

I'm 55 yrs and will be 56 this Nov.

One province where my tactic works is Owari.
I think that the Owari province is the only province with two bridges. There is a point between the two bridges about 1/3 of the total distance from the left bridge, if you are the attacker, that is within range of the defending troops who are supposed to be standing out of range of the bridge archers.
The river bends in slightly there.

I had a troop of archers waiting at that bend (in the batter's box, so to speak) when suddenly they open up, and they were decimating two or three units of monks who just stood there and took it until they were down to 3 or 4 men.


Sometimes these bends only allow you to get extra archers shooting at defenders from a flanking position, but this doubles the damage you can do.

Now, I look for this oportunity at every river crossing. It's happened in other provinces, but I just can't remember where.

When you get older the memory is the second thing to go. I forget what the first is.

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Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl.

My favorite use of my favorite unit is "Ashi Suicide Run". Sorry I couldn't think of a better name. Works well any time. The best is if you have a fair amount YA on the payroll and need to make some cuts before fall rolls around. Also, if you attack with more than 16 units, make sure that there are a bunch of YA in the first group to attack. Then have the normal fast units as the reserves(YC, ND, YA, or CA).

Say you attack with 8YA, 7 samurai and your taisho in the first army. Then 8 YA in your second army. Split the samurai and the YA apart as they move across the battle field. Move your taisho along with your YA as measure of reasurance. Find a nice vantage point for samurai so they can watch the carnage from a safe distance. Form a double line of YA. This way the ones in front think the ones in back will protect them and the ones in the rear will think the ones up front will absorb most of the blow. Charge the enemy line. Preferably in a flanking fashion to at least take some enemy troops with them. When the peasants start to rout, move your taisho back to a safe distance. Watch as the fleet footed peasants book for the border.

As the pursuers pass the samurai, pick them off one by one. This will often bring more of the defenders forward in piece meal manner. Once the first round of YA have left the map the second round will come in as replacements. Move these forward in timely manor and attack in the normal fashion before time runs out. The depleted and tired enemy will fold under the presure of your fresh troops.

So why needlessly waste all those lives for such an insignificant gain? Its kind of like boxing. The left jab never knocks anyone down. The boxer keeps jabbing his opponent until the opponent is weakened enough for the right hook. Alright, that wasn't the best analogy. You get the idea.

BanzaiZAP, well stated. Couldn't say it better myself.

JoBeare

FO.. Yah, if ever you find your audience's eyes glazing over as you refer to matters arcane (ie: Bebop, sock hops, Pet Rocks), I'll lend a friendly ear and we can commiserate on the shallow nature of youth today. hehe

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Now were in business..... Keep those ideas coming..... I think i'm going to print this thread and try just about everything. THANKS AGAIN FOR POSTING, YOU'RE FEEDING The Bear

I never use the 'Skirmish' mode for my archers. As Samurai they have the morale to hold in the face of a charge and not crack easily. This is valuable because when they have taken a charge I always have them backed by foot troops that can now charge a foe who is standing still. Because mine(archers) are stretched out in two lines their losses rarely get high enough to cause them to rout.

If you are treating them as non-coms because they are out of arrows, don't. Place them to the rear of units fighting, or flank with them. Throw them in where the battle is tight. Remember that tutorial....archers with the advantage of height can take out Yari in HtH.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Yep, whenever my archers run out of arrows I put them behind my HTH units as reserves.

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A great warrior rarely reveal his true skills....

BURP!!!!

Sorry indigestion..Well seems this thread is dying now.You have fed me , Thank you, all.

I am very interested in the YA Nd match-up, I thik it is the best use to come from this thread so far. Can we improve upon it a bit by adding SAs to soften up the target before the ND charge? Or does that put too much manpower on the scene at one time?

One thing about the YA/ND, is since there are only the two units, they can hide very easily. Adding an archer unit, and now you have a full skirmish group, rather than just a nasty surprise. That takes a lot more management, and you might as well just break your army into two or three cohorts. The YA/ND tactic is when you have the bulk of your army visible on a hillside. The enemy will move to surround you main group, and will often not realize you have one or two ambush groups hiding out in the wilderness. Once the enemy engages the main army, you have your surprises dash out and hit him when he's not looking.

An important thing to remember that both YA and ND are fragile units. They can not hang in a fight very long. The main point of this tactic is to ROUT his troops, then cut them down as they flee. YA and ND both run quickly, so they are good at chasing fleeing troops, at less cost than cavalry. If they manage to form up against your raiding parties, then they will butcher you to the last man. Both YA and ND as essentially unarmored, so they will be cut down in a long battle. In the Single Player, heavily armored YA/ND are lethal! Actually, in the Exp Pack you WILL be able to armor your ND! Woo hoo! As you may guess, Shimazu is the best clan for this tactic, as they get boosted/cheap ND.

-- B)