Do general stars affect the strength of your soldiers or something?

=== Just a little history of the empire, skip right to the end if you like ===

I've been playing as the French from the early period up until 1170 so far, i've been doing well, i control all of France, Normandy, Flanders, a province in the north of Spain which i stole when it rebelled, Genoa in the south-east and the most north-west province in Italy which i also stole after rebellion. I've just come out of a major war with the English and the Germans which re-shaped my empire into what it is today. It forced me to abandon some eastern provinces which were a problem to defend due to them being surrounded by other factions and conquer the English provinces on the mainland.

All in all i came out on top, but it was a very bloody war which lasted about 15 years and saw a lot of provinces reduced to nothing after being captured, lost, captured, lost, captured and lost again. The battles were huge with full stacks on either side, and i lost most of them.

Anyway, the war is mostly over now. There are small skirmishes here and there but nothing major, and the Germans have accepted an alliance with me after the Venetians made a comeback in one of their provinces with 3 full stacks of good quality troops. However, the English have established a large empire in Denmark and in some of the old HRE provinces who they were at war with for around 40 years, so i have the English on my north-east border in force, and war is inevitable.

=== End campaign history ===

Now, the question. During the war i lost almost every battle, even where i was numerically superior. I had archers fighting in melee and beating spearmen. I had enemy spearmen beating my feudal men-at-arms badly, even when my soldiers had experience and lords with command stars, lots of dread and honour and piety. I had hobilars (Hobilars!) decimating my mounted sergeants, royal knights and sergeant spearmen, which should all defeat hobilars with no problems at all. The only reason i came out on top was because i began using 4-5-6 units of archers in every army.

I'm only playing on hard difficulty, not expert, so i don't understand what's going on. Will my army fight better with a king or general who has more command stars? I know command stars affect morale, but does it affect the way they fight? I lost a lot of good generals early in the war so i was fighting with 2, 1 and sometimes 0 command star kings and lords.

Can anybody give me any tips? What kind of army composition do you use in the early period? Why are my units being defeated by grossly inferior quality troops?

:help: :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Dayve

I'm only playing on hard difficulty, not expert, so i don't understand what's going on. Will my army fight better with a king or general who has more command stars? I know command stars affect morale, but does it affect the way they fight?

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Yes, they do. I am vague on the details but I think it is something like 2 command stars is equivalent to one valour. Bear in mind that in MTW, the dispersion of stats is much smaller than in RTW so that a few valour points can totally overturn the expected outcome of a combat between units of different quality. (For example, hobilars are the same as mounted sergeants, except they don't get the +1 defence for the shield and have 2 lower charge. Give them one higher valour and they are the better unit.). Quite often I have fought 7-9 star Byzantine generals and seen their slav warriors or other low grade infantry just smash my line.

What exagerates it a lot is the morale effect. If you have no general, or a low/no command general, your line can chain rout almost the second an enemy mass charge hits you.

Playing on hard also gives the AI a slight combat edge (15% less combat effectiveness + some morale benefit).

Removing the combat effect of generals (in RTW and M2TW), widening the stat dispersion and watering down valour (in M2TW) are instances of CA improving the realism of the game mechanics over time, IMO.

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Can anybody give me any tips? What kind of army composition do you use in the early period? Why are my units being defeated by grossly inferior quality troops?

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Always fight with a general. Particularly get your king to fight so that his sons are spawned with high command.

My early armies were usually a shieldwall backed with archers and with cavalry on the flanks. Dismounted men-at-arms are great against enemy infantry but take a while to get on early, IIRC.

Height advantages were very important in MTW.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Yes, they do. I am vague on the details but I think it is something like 2 command stars is equivalent to one valour.

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IIRC it was +1 attack for every odd star and +1 defence for every even one, so two stars equal one point of valour, minus the morale bonus. However, stars also give morale bonuses to units nearby the general.

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Originally Posted by econ21

Playing on hard also gives the AI a slight combat edge (15% less combat effectiveness + some morale benefit).

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IIRC it was +10% for the A.I. at hard; and +15% and +5 morale at expert. I once tested the effect of the +10% combat effectiveness and found that while it was quite hard to notice during the melee, it was sufficient to make the A.I. win when to equal, fresh, undepleted units fought.

From frogbeastegg's "A Beginners Guide to Medieval: Total War":

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

"What is valour?
Valour is a measure of how experienced a unit is. Each point of valour is earned in battle by killing non-routing enemies. It adds +1 attack +1 defence +2 morale, you can probably see from this why veterans with high valour are to be feared. Valour can also be gained from the general, for every second star he receives the men in his army get a point of special valour which adds +1 attack +1 defence.

A unit is always constructed at 0 valour, however there are two exceptions to this.
1.The province the unit comes from has a special bonus for that kind of unit (for example Wales gives all longbowmen +1 valour if they are built there). In this case the unit will start with 1 valour.
2.The unit is constructed in a master level building. A master level building gives any unit that comes from it a +1 valour bonus, so they start with 1 valour. This bonus is cumulative with any province bonuses enabling you to build a unit with 2 starting valour. Generally the master bonuses are easy to figure out, if it uses a bow it gets it bonus from the bowyers, swords from sword smiths and so on. There are several units that require many different types of building (e.g. Byzantine cavalry which need horse breeder, bowyers workshop and sword smiths workshop) where it is not obvious which master building gives the bonus. All you can do in cases like this is build both masters.

A side note for custom battles and multiplayer: Always make sure to buy valour for your troops, especially the generals unit. It makes the fight more interesting; it is considered bad form to show up in a multiplayer game with a large army of valour 0."

Ah, that explains it then. That also explains why my kings sons are being born with 0 command too. My king has been sat in Ile De france due to the fact that everytime i lead a battle my leading unit (king or lord) always gets killed or his unit decimated, and because i frequently lose battles i just let my kings and princes keep out of danger as much as i possibly can. :oops:

If the kings got high enough influence, it doesn't matter if they sit back or fight, as the high influence will give better hiers. With a larger empire, it's not recommended to attack with your king, as there's a bug that causes massive rebellions.

As a general rule, try not to be outstared by more than 2-3 stars, as when they get 2 or higher valour bonus compared to your troops, they start to get really mean.

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Originally Posted by Labrat

IIRC it was +1 attack for every odd star and +1 defence for every even one, so two stars equal one point of valour, minus the morale bonus. However, stars also give morale bonuses to units nearby the general.

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No, it's 1 valour for every 2 stars, but without the morale bonus. You're correct that the stars gives extra morale on the battefield though.

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Originally Posted by Labrat

IIRC it was +10% for the A.I. at hard; and +15% and +5 morale at expert. I once tested the effect of the +10% combat effectiveness and found that while it was quite hard to notice during the melee, it was sufficient to make the A.I. win when to equal, fresh, undepleted units fought

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It's 15% for hard and +4 morale and 30% for expert~ 1 valour.

Few tips that I learned the hard way (pretty sure you can find them and more in the guides but what the heck):

- never put any peasants units in your line-up. They will always be a liability cause they rout way to easily (and can cause other non-elite units to do the same)
- never use a general that gives a moral penalty (strange, unhinged loon, not so bold, merciless, good runner etc) especially with low tech units (spearmen, urban militia, archers) that have a low morale already;
- as a rule of thumb you should try not to fight generals who's command level will grant a bonus higher than yours. Since two stars give valour +1, a zero or one star general should not be used in a fight against one with two or more, one with two or three against an enemy general with four or more etc. There are instances where you can of course not do anything else (but notice that the AI has a silly tendency to make some kind of reconnaissance attack now and then which are usually great opportunities to kill its best general. Check also if the enemy general does not give any moral penalty to its troops and what those troops are (a very good general with an army of peasant and archer becomes a good target);
- build churches whenever you can. The +1 morale bonus is a must have for low techs units.
- use your general cautiously but use it. The thing is to avoid your general being killed or routed (that usually means mass route and battle over) but also to make sure that he sees at least some action since after a few battle doing nothing he will get the "not so bold vice" v&v which gives a -2 moral penalty.
- be careful about retreating cause it gives your general the "retreats often" V&V that cause also a morale penalty (so you are better off starting the battle and withdraw all your units at once in some case since it only counts as a battle lost. If you win the next one you are back on track while you are stuck with the V&V whatever you do afterwards. Same remarks goes for cancelled attacks since you do not want the "hesitant" v&v.
- if you cannot cope at all with the quality of the enemy generals, a few inquisitors can help you a great deal (so efficient that it is considered cheesy by some but if you are in the process of learning the trade that is certainly fine IMHO). Only works if the enemy is catholic of course. Assassins could do the same but you will need way more time without guarantee that you will ever succeed.

Hope it helps a bit.
Best of luck.:2thumbsup:

i didnt know that you could avoid the 'retreats often' v&v by starting teh battle and then retreating. very useful. ta for that.

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Originally Posted by MJF

i didnt know that you could avoid the 'retreats often' v&v by starting teh battle and then retreating. very useful. ta for that.

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do not use it extensively though you might end up loosing one (for losing the battle) or two stars (if you get the weak defender v&v on top). Moreover since your general does not fight you can get the "not so bold" v&v atfer a few of such retreats.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

It's 15% for hard and +4 morale and 30% for expert~ 1 valour.

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:oops: You are absolutely right. Thanks for the correction.

The difference in combat at Expert level is definitely noticeable. Enemy spearmen take a lot more killing and are much more dangerous, likewise, you cant count on a couple of cavalry charges into the enemy Archers to cause a mass rout. Manuevability becomes even more important, as does making max. use of the terrain. I've had to adjust my strategies significantly on expert, as I can't rely on my swordsmen charging down hill to scatter the advancing spears and swords. Now they hold and fight back while their cavalry moves to outflank me and scatter my archers!

Flanking and rear attacks almost always decide the battle now so containing the enemy cavalry is very important.

I found that you can work your units in a way so that you can take advantage of their strong points. I bribed a rebel army in Lavonia and got one chivalric sergents and one slav warriors. 0 stars. I was then attacked by 4 units, 4 stars. Two archers and two chiv sergents. I hid my slavs in a patch of trees and actually placed the sergents out in the open. My slavs were set in perpendicular to the Sergents. Since the sergents are strong defence, I just held them in position. They started their charge, both of the sergents hit mine. Once they hit, I charged the slavs out of the woods into the meat grinder. Before I knew it, my sergents and slavs pushed the crew back and then were chasing down the archers. Although I was left with half the army I started with, I pushed the rebels back.

So, I released the prisoners, hacked the ringleaders, and on the next turn, lost the army to an overwhelming rebellion. So, I went back in, bribed the army again, and so the cycle started again. Took about 10 turns to get an army, bishop, spy, etc. to secure the peace.

actually, when taking a province, loyalty is the first thing you should take care of. I usually put taxes at very low at the start, then raise the tax when loyalty becomes stable(i.e. around 120-130+).

what is the battle tally per star by the way?

i know that one victory gives the first star. is it another single victory to get the second? anyone know the full list?

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Originally Posted by MJF

what is the battle tally per star by the way?

i know that one victory gives the first star. is it another single victory to get the second? anyone know the full list?

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For the command stars given through combat, not titles and v&v, it seems to still be following the Shogun style of being 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64 (Shogun couldn't go higher than 7 stars, 127 victories was the most).

Haven't been thoroughly tested afaik though. Shogun did display those victories, so it was easier.