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How do you people use agents. I must admit I do not use them frequently, diplomat to get trade. toggle_fow for maps, I make my own fate (no alliances) etc
I went through a spell of using assassins but got bored quickly. The julii spy was the only one i used, i did not bother ecruiting another when he snuffed it.
How are they best used and what are the importance of them in your own games?
Denny
Spies do counter-espionage. Put one in each of your cities and you'll be fairly protected against enemy spies (who will lower public order and will be able to open the gates if you are besieged). You can add a spy to an army, increasing their line of sight. I use a lot of them - all of the above plus I tend to put spies in a good spot in enemy territory, beyond the visual range of my watchtowers just to see if there is a major military buildup going on (indicator for an impending attack) or if there are any enemy armies on the way.
They are useful for biological warfare too. Put a spy in a plague-infested city and then send him of to infect enemy cities. I find them really useful.
Assassins can be useful, if you train them slowly, so that they gain experience before taking out tougher targets. It is good to ensure that they have 40% - 90% possibility of killing the target
I usually send them first against captains (armies with no family members leading them), then, against other agents, like diplomats, then, when they are experienced enough, against low ranking family members. And an assassin with 9 or 10 "eyes" can actually try killing rival faction leaders.
If you are a Roman faction, you can gain offices in Senate by getting rid if opponents this way.
Also, smaller factions can be destroyed, if all their family members die in the same turn.
Taking this into account, they do seem quite useful. I mean it would stop me using toggle_fow for a start making it slightly more realistic. I like the idea of biological warfare :evilgrin:
Denny
This gives 'meaning to politics and war are all or nothing affairs'Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarian
Denny
Indeed. The best target to train your assassins are other assassins. For some odd reason they always have a 90something success rating. You need a spy to spot these guys though.
If you are playing an initially rich faction in vanilla, (like the seleucids for example) diplomats can also save you alot of trouble, because the (captain-led) armies of your enemies will usually be dirt cheap. So for the first couple of years during your buildup play Rome:Total Bribery...
I suppose that would be handy with a greek faction. Why do I always have trouble bribing Romans as Romans?
Denny
That's a game history thing. In Rome 1.0, once the civil war broke out, you as a roman faction could always buy roman fullstacks for like 5000 denarii. At that stage of the game, this is peanuts. In other words, no army buildup was required as preparation for civil war. You simply bought other roman armies and used them against their former employers.
This changed with the patches and now bribing romans is almost not feasible anymore.
Yup .. unfortunatly this is true .. I remember that first time I got civil war I had read some guide about romans and there was written that you could easely buy other roman armys .. you can imagen my surprise when I couldn't :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by I of the Storm
But about agents .. I try to use them with my main armys .. diplomat for bribing enemy armys .. spy for opening enemy gates and for line of sight .. asassins for sabotage and enemy FM killing :yes:
A tip about training up assassins when playing as a Roman faction (or a faction near Italy) : send your new assassin to Italy. There are usually a huge bunch of diplomats and captains around as easy targets. I've gained four "eyes" immediately after assassinating a zero-influence diplomat for a first mission before, through traits and ancillaries. Also, there will usually be plenty of SPQR and Scipii family members standing around doing nothing. Help them improve their genealogy by pruning their family tree of zero-everything family members. ;)
But I still find that the most useful feature of assassins is the ability to sabotage enemy buildings, especially in tandem with spies. For example, if I see (through a spy) that a city has borderline public order (90-100%), I will send an assassin to take out the temple, or, preferably, the Arena so that they can't stage games. It's exceedingly gratifying to see a city in the throes of a riot that you yourself ocherstrated.
By the way, is it just me, or are Carthegenian cities more difficult to sabotage? Even with an experienced assassin against a city with no family member, the probability is much lower than of, say, a Spanish or Greek city. Do the Secret Police Network line of buildings improve public security?
I've read guides that advocate sending a few spies ahead of each army to check for ambushes and such, but I've never used them that extensively-- I usually have one or two spies in a region/theatre of operations, like one for Spain, a couple for Germania, one for Africa, etcetera to open gates.
I only use diplomat extensively in the early game, to obtain trade rights and map information. I almost never trade or sell my own map information, as I think that gives the enemy a military advantage, especially if I'm a desert faction like Parthia, Carthage or Egypt.
So that's why...... I suppose I can see the logic in it. I was very annoyed by this though. There was once where, as the Julii, I tried to bribe a two-unit Brutii army of unknown units, thinking that they would waste movement points to track down, or combine with a larger army to bolster its ranks. The price was ridiculously high for two units-- over 15000d. I thought that I had hit the jackpot, that I had stumbled upon some elite units like onagers, or triarii. Imagine my annoyance when I saw that I had bribed only a regular unit of principes and an understrength hastati unit. I felt cheated, suckered out of my precious gold.Quote:
Originally Posted by I of the Storm
By the way, does anyone know why you can't bribe the armies of your fellow Roman allies before the civil war? It's not a matter of them refusing your bribe, but that of the bribe option not even being avaliable.
Another way for using spies is the biological warfare: If plague starts in one of my cities, I quickly train spies in it. Then send the inffected spies to the rival settlements. I think I once destroyed Scipii before the civil war in this way, all their family members died of plague...:oops:
It is not often that people die of the plague, yes they get infcted for a few turns but in my experience of infecting cities with loads of FM 5/10 nobody dies. In my cities as well 50% of the time not one FM dies of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarian
Yes, usually it is so. But the garrisons still die, and the population decreases. This can sometimes slow down them a lot.
I use spies the most and diplomats mostly when I'm quite rich, to bribe as many enemy armies as possible without having to fight. If I'm not at the rich stage yet I just use them to go around, get alliances from whomever wants to be my ally and to get trade rights. Nothing much else. I love spies because when I can see the enemy's armies and buildings I can plan my strategy ahead a lot better and minimalize losses suffered in the battle. And of course the biological warfare that Barbarian mentioned. ~:)
Not sure why, but I never got into the habit of using assassins.
Me, I hate the fact that the bodyguard size of the family member increases if you fail the assassination attempt. So other than very low-level generals that provides armies with annoyingly effective heavy cavalry, or Men of the Hour, I don't assassinate all that much. I just level up sufficiently, and then sabotage buildings all the time, giving the assassin a chance to practice if a stray diplomat happens to wander along. =)
With the Men of the Hour that the AI seems to get annoyingly often if you bleed them enough, I like to station an assassin beside the army. Every turn, without fail, a new, hapless captain will get promoted. Equally without fail, they will feel the scythe of Pluto immediately after their adoption. They never seem to take care of their security, these hapless amateurs.
I don't mind this exploit, because it seems pretty unfair to me that they are getting three- or four-star generals in such abundance.
When I get to the almost infinite money stage, I, like many others, use diplomats in their tens to drag in any forces which are approaching my cities and I could do with having rid of (this is especially useful when I'm building up my forces, and I don't want a battle to force me to go through the irritant of re-training). Early on though, diplomats are there to make simply trade deals, ceasefires, alliances and the suchlike.
Assassins I hardly use at all in fact, considering them only worth the effort when a family has only a small number of family members left, and wiping out them all is fairly easy. When the faction still has a wide array of family left, I consider it a little pointless - for every one you kill, another load of family members of equal status are born to replace them.
Spies I train a few of, and use them in any cities which are showing high levels of unrest with no reason for it. They also can be useful in forcing the settlement of a neutral faction or an ally to rebel, henceforth allowing me to take their old city with no repercussions. This is only useful in cities already tipping towards dissent already though. Spies don't have an effect on unrest that is large enough to make a fairly happy settlement feel willing to turn away from its overlords.
~:)
Yeah, it's all fun and games, until the faction that you infected sends out their spies with your plague. :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbarian
Is it just me, or does Dacia use the most spies out of all the factions?
Yes, but these family members act as very effective shock cavalry-- they die hard due to the extra hitpoint, and they can be replenished after every battle so long as the generals themselves don't die. And since a lot of them are extremely easy to kill with assassins (>80%)......Quote:
Originally Posted by Omanes Alexandrapolites
That's a very fair and unarguable point you make there Quirinus which I seem to have overlooked a little when considering the importance of assassinations. I'll probably consider it in the future.
:stupido3:
Agents? Historically I do not know of assassins, yes there was Caesar's assassinators but I do not know of a civilisation sending out trained killers to eliminate warlord or such people. In that case I do not use them in RTW. Diplomats and spies play a valued part, yes very important.
Yeah...... well, I think that the roles of spy and assassin should have been combined. For example, I cannot for the life of me see why a spy cannot perform a building sabotage, or why an assassin cannot scout out the surroundings. And generals should have an inbuilt ability to negotiate alliances. Sure, that reduces the relevance of diplomats, but it doesn't make it redundant, as generals generally (ooh, alliteration xD) have more important things to do than running around the map.