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Why aren't there any? In both my campaigns with rome and carthage i lost an island to the oponent becouse i couldn't recruit any units.
I dunno if there are any units in the higher MIC, but i'm wondering why aren't any local levys?
Were they bad fighters, or the EB never thought of including them?
I'm pretty sure i've read that the Carthaginians used Sardinian units.
Any feedback would be apriciated:clown:
There was a unit planned for that area but it never got made. I think there was an arguement over what exactly they would be like, since there was little info about them. There was talk about getting them into v1.1, but I don't think that ever got done...
Well, on Corsica I can train some minor Greek units as the Romani.
I think Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) and Akontistai (Hellenic Skirmishers) are the only ones. On Sardinia though I can´t train anything expect ships and agents, even though I have the highest MIC. Though I´m not sure if that changes with the Marian reforms.
But really, I think you should at least be able to recruit some militia units from either the Greek or Punic colonies on Sardinia, perhaps even some of Nuraghe.
Of course, I can understand if the Romans can´t recruit Punic militas, and perhaps there weren´t enough Greek colonies to recruit from, so if that is indeed the case, then I am okay with it, as i seem to recall being able to recruit Poeni Militia as Karth´astdim. and of course, if there isn´t enough info on the Nuraghe´s warfare then it´s pretty hard to include them.
Is Tanit still around?
He was the one that talked about the unit and I got info for him...
He checks in from time to time, he's busy with school...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Certainly not. The Romans had much trouble in getting the hinterland of these Islands under controll for centuries. I think that at least Akontistai and Haploi should be available on Sardinia too.Quote:
Originally Posted by anubis88
Sardinians weren't bad fighters at all.
In fact, Sardinia was sort of mini-iberia for the romans in terms of conquest.
The native population in the mountainous region of barbagia (the balares and other "sardi pelliti") kept fighting the romans in guerrilla-style for over a century.
Romans had to resort to forest fires and wardogs to successfully penetrate the interior, which remained unsafe until early imperial times.
Then shouldn´t there be some minor units from Sardinia? At least as small rebel stacks appearing. It might be hard to say exactly how they fought, but perhaps it´s possible to guess with some certainity. Maybe just one single unit with a couple of javelins, no armour and a spear or whatever they most likely used. Please? It would be really cool I think.
Maybe something like the Balroae (Caledonian Skirmishers), I know they are located far away from each other, but the Balroae is a prime example of a weak but annoying guerrila unit.
I know there have been significant excavations and such on Sardinia of the Nuraghi towers, and one (me) would suspect that the archeologist would have found things like arrowheads, spearpoints, or other sorts of things that are often found near ancient important symbolic sites. Of course, I know very little on the matter, and I am mostly speculating.
But still, everyone must agree that picturing Sardinia as a completely peaceful island once taken by the Romani is slightly historicaly incorrect.
Ah but if the natives are'nt friendly they ain't going to join your army!
Yeah, but it would be cool even if you could only fight against them. Besides, I can always bribe a couple, and then give them garrison duty in Siberia.
And that´s if they´re nice.
Hallo, I'm Sardinian and very fond of history especially Sardinian one. I'm sorry for my English, I don't speak very well. I want to give my contribution at this speech talking you about the Sardinian Units creation.
Recent research identify warriors of “nuraghi” with Bronze age sea people called “Shardana”, that in 1200 a.C. attacked Egypt and destroying Hittite Empire.
In the 540 B.C. sardinian army defeated the General Malco Carthaginian one composed by 80.000 men. Even Carthaginians had never conquered the hinterland of Sardinia
In second Punic War, Sardinian-Punic (inhabitant of coastline) and the Sardinian of hinterland army joined for fighting roman one but during the battle they were defeated (General Ampsicora, battle of Cornus 215 A.c.). After the battle, Sardinian resistance continued as guerrillas for several century. In general sources talk about Sardinians as strong warriors (they probably joined Pharaoh real guard).
Bronze statuettes depict different types of nuraghe warriors:
Archers was armed, with a bow to double curving. the bow was in a position to hitting its targets longest distance. For this its abiliity, the shardana archers used a directional auction in order to know the direction of the wind. The Shardana archers had armour,and horned helmet of bronze.
archer with bow double curved
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...0orantemj9.jpg
archer with directional auction
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...irzionajm7.jpg
archer at horse
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...0divinoep5.jpg
archer with sword
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...arco20eyr7.jpg
heavy infantry it was distinguished, in swordman and man with "virga sardesca". both armed with, bronze helmet and armour. The swordman besides were equip with a circular shield. The shield had to the center a "umbone"(it was the element centers them of the shield that the Greeks called "omphalos") and it was made with bronze slabs. they had various types of sword.
swordman with shield
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...onspadafc2.jpg
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...cornutonr6.jpg
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=faqq10uq7.jpg
One type it was the great sword to shape "of leaf of bay" or of other shape. The great sword extracted from the scabbard that was held in the shoulder like the japanese katana. An other type was the small swords probably from launch.
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...ronzo20lj7.jpg
Particular warriors was armed with “virga sardesca”.It was a bronze auction much thick one finished with aims curve. the historical sources (it came used from the sardinian also in the middle age) asserts that frightening one was an arm much but of it the use in not konwn.
https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?i...img0018mh4.jpg
besides the cavalry it was composed from wagons like the old Egyptians as one is looked at statue of bronze to the museum of Cagliari.
finally every warrior carried a dagger in the chest. the dagger had one typicall hilt with the cross guard to right angle. together to horned helmet it is the main symbol of the nuragic warrior
a soldier with sling and dagger
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...bolierern0.jpg
a head tribe with dagger and main sword
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...pugnalerx0.jpg
As far as I know, the Nuraghi have never been confirmed to be connected with the Shardana, and even if they were it´s not certain that the Nuraghi would have keept all those things, and certainly chariots would have been mentioned somewhere, at least the romans usually mentioned them when they had defeated an army using them. Also, doesn´t Strabo describe the natives of Sardinia as rather savage compared to greeks, and armed with only a small leather shield an knife? Of course he might be wrong, I really don´t know much about this, though I find it kinda wierd that Sardinia is part of the regiosn required to take as Koinon Hellenon, yet you can´t recruit any units there. Just seems kind wierd.
Actually I didn´t even bother reading the new post in this thread when I saw Tom0 had made it. One-liners are all the does.
Anyway, can someone of the EB team answer mine and Dedalonur´s theory´s please, I´d really like to know if some Sardinia units will be included in the future, wether they are Nuraghi, Greek or anything else.
Excavations and local historians shown two main things about Sardinia:
1) Most warriors used by Carthage weren't exactly natives but mixed at best (not unlike liby-phoenicians) and they were usually integrated in the various units without being a distinguished corps.
2) Recent excavations in nuragical sites in barbagia (interior Sardinia, where the "real" native tribes were) have shown that nuragic warriors were extremely conservative in warfare, with unpublished material showing pieces of an iron panoply that was basically a copy of the bronze age ones.
So, there are two possible choices about Sardinia:
1) giving them basic punic "civic" units like the citizen militia and cavalry
2) having a medium-high tier native unit representing mercenaries from the interior tribes, aka the Sardi Pelliti (which were usually Balares and other similar tribes), even though the recruitment should be severely restricted as they were fiercely independent to the point that they briefly owned the whole island during the mercenary war (before the roman invasion).
I'm going to add my 2 cents here, although I am far from having any sort of expert knowledge on the subject. I concur with Zarax's second conclusion ...
2) having a medium-high tier native unit representing mercenaries from the interior tribes, aka the Sardi Pelliti (which were usually Balares and other similar tribes), even though the recruitment should be severely restricted as they were fiercely independent to the point that they briefly owned the whole island during the mercenary war (before the roman invasion).
I believe this would be the most accurate representation of the Islanders fierce independence yet still allow some "cool unit" playability for everyone. By everyone I rather selfishly refer to us Western Mediterrean fans - aka. the non-greek influenced part of the map.
I guess the EB team therefore has to decide if they have enough unit slots AND enough unit information to decide if any of these units can and will be included.
Dedalonur9 has posted some interesting pics. Dedalonur9, do you have any links/sources for us to read? Or any one else for that matter?
Sidenote: I am currently playing a Romani campaign and using many of Konny's House Rules, if you are famaliar with them - adjusted to my tastes of course. He has posted some helpful maps and other info. I walked (well actually stormed) into Sardinia knowing full well that there is no way to recruit units there - but w/o Konny's maps - I would have dumped a LOT of mnai into that islands MIC for no return. Bring your own garrison units for now!
Well Nuraghi were planned for EB I Sadly they probably won't make it in anymore however. I suspect them to be on the EB II unitlist, and thus probably will make it in.
General Lappo you have reason, the identity between Sardinian and Shardana still is not accepted from all, but always more scholars. I have read recently various book in wich the author it is in agreement with such teory (for example, Brian H. Warmington, History of Carthage). The similarity of the name, helmet, shield and dress of the Sardinian statue to illustrations in the Mendinet Habu Wall panels strongly suggests part of the Sea Peoples forces came from Sardinia.
http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/An...a_peoples.html
http://i-cias.com/e.o/sea_people.htm
http://www.minoanatlantis.com/Origin_Sea_Peoples.php
Moreover you keep in mind these 3 points:
- the old sardinian were navigators like demonstrate the statues in bronze found again in Sardinia.
https://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?...driawebvk4.jpg
https://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?...uragicazv9.jpg
- in Sardinian it has been found again a stone whit the written "SRDN", must it read like SHER-DAN, an another name of the shardana.
- the old theory is supported from less and less studious. they thought that the Shardana came from from Sardi (or Sardes) in Turkey. this does not agree with the egyptian sources. They assert that the Shardana came from the Islands to the center of the great green in the west.
the greeks saw like barbarians all that that was not greek, made exception for the Egyptian and the Romans. the relationship between greeks and sardinians is wrapped in the myth and from legends, like as an example, Talos monster, or Heracles, Dedalo and others.
For the myth Dedalo came in Sardinia to construct the "dedaleia" that is the Nuraghi. In truth they came only constructed from the Sardininians. The metallurgy is present in Sardinia from the 1500 A.C.. Is obvious from the same statues that the sardinians did not fight with shield of leather and daggers. A Egyptian clergyman said to Solone that <the Greeks were like children of forehead to the history>.....
historically Erodoto speaks about a colonization plan of the Sardinia that, but, did not have place. it is therefore of all the impossible one to obtain Greek troops in Sardinia of whichever kind.
In Roman age the revolts were numerous, the greater ones go from the first roman attempt to conquer the island in the 241 A.C. to the 6 D.c. Of were one upset resistance more than that one of the sanniti ones. They were work of the Balari (Barbagia) and the Iliensi (Gallura), but some times also of the coastal populations.
in the sources they do not come described the ways with which these populations fought(we have lost the two last book of Tito Livio in which he spoke himself about these revolts) . It is but improbable that they fought like the Carthaginian. Above all Ilienses and Balares, they are from thinking to the war traditions to the age of the bronze.
As far as the Legionaries troops, not being a island a lot lived, and since the citizens had not had citizenship (obtained after the reform of Caracalla), the number was always lowest and enters in statistics single in the successive age to Adrian.
As far as auxiliary ones, the sardinians supplied (like sardinia island) 3 cohort, while like province (Sardinia and Corsica) 6 cohort, 3 for both islands with a great number of the Sardinian on the Course.
The "cohors I Sardorum" was allocated to Cagliari in the first three centuries d.C., while the "cohors II Sardorum" founded at the time of Adrian, was allocated to Sur Dyuab, approximateley 100 km to south of Algeri.
I am trying new material hardly I will have it I will show you the imagesQuote:
Originally Posted by Disciple of Tacitus
Some nice work, Dedalonur9. It seems the islands will always have an aura of mystery to them. I enjoyed the links to the Sea People information, but doubt they would suffice for the EB team. Regardless, it is background information and - in my view - you cite some interesting - and I assume prove-able (that in itself is always hard in this field) facts that DO apply to the game.
I had no idea that Rome had raised some Auxillary Cohorts from Sardinia and Corisica. Am I correct in understanding that they were raised 300 AD (after Christ)?
Well, Moros implies that the "Nuraghi" unit will be in the next release. Let's hope so.
Actually, Moros said that they won´t be in the next release, but probably in EB 2. So if you´re still around in 2-3 years you can possibly play with unique Sardinia units Dedalonur9. It´s all about patience.
Ouch. Just re-checked the post. You are correct. 2-3 years?!? Well, I do believe I've been playing EB for 2 years, so what is another 2 years? I might actually get to play through all the factions - perhaps even the dreaded Yellow Annoyance
Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalonur9
Can't say I'm entirely convinced. Even the (speculative) links you posted and what little I've read on the subject suggest that, at most, part of what are identified as Sea Peoples later conquered and settled in Sardinia. There are shared elements of archeological finds, but not enough to link Sardinia as the source of the Shardana rather than the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalonur9
Greeks colonised "Sardo" in the 6th cent. BCE. The colonies there didn't fare well and were abandoned after the war of Greek colonists against combined Etruscan-Phoenician armies. Trade posts of Syracusians aka "Syrakosios Limen" which were expanded into full blown colonies are mentioned in the southern part of "Sardo" aka Sardenia in the time prior to EB's start. Agathokles built it/them. Hence Hoplites are perfectly normal for Sardenia.Quote:
historically Erodoto speaks about a colonization plan of the Sardinia that, but, did not have place. it is therefore of all the impossible one to obtain Greek troops in Sardinia of whichever kind.
Keravnos, do you guys have any hard evidence for such a level of colonization?
AFAIK the greeks didn't fare well at all in Sardinia (unlike corsica, where they had at least some colonization) and they were pretty much all driven out by the game start, with maybe the exception of Olbia and Turris.
Natives in the north and carthaginian in the south weren't too keen of having greek settlers messing around.
Unless we're talking about something like the red sea hoplites (aka natives trained and equipped by greek settlers) I don't think there are the basis for a greek based AOR.
IIRC Sardinia was divided in different zones of influence, with the south firmly into punic and puno-nuragic hands, the interior was pretty much made inaccessible by the sardi pelliti tribes, some iberian/balearic influence on the east and a few greek outposts in the north.
This would result either in a huge local pool of units or in a very-tiny-to-nothing one, depending on the criteria.
BTW, ancient greeks used to call the island iknussa, IIRC sardenia became common only after the 1st punic war with the famous "sardus venales" motto about the fact that sardinian slaves were untrustworthy and known for killing the owner if they had a chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/...onzettohe8.jpg
I think your sources are really old. The link between Sardinians and Shardana (Srdn) has been proved by archaeologist Ugas, professor of prehistory and protohistory in Italy -and by other scholars too.- About Strabonis, Herodot and others, you must consider that they ignore everything about Sardinia (i.e. no Latin author writes about the over 12.000 castles built by Sardinians and still existing in that period - see "Barumini" or "Losa" castle) and their words are probably wrong. In some cases, rumours and propaganda.
https://img113.imageshack.us/img113/...aruminicv6.jpg
In addition, it is well known that there was a bad relation between Sardinians and Latins/Greeks of the time. This fact is confirmed by Cicero (i.e. read Scaurus' trial) and by other Latin writers.
About Sardinian chariots we have many pictures, but Sardinians probably utilized them in other battles and before fighting the Romans.
Sardinian chariot and Egyptian chariot.
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4891/carricw5.jpg
Sardinian horse and Hittite horse
https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/...valiericu3.jpg
That's the main problem with sources available, they mostly apply to much earlier times.
So, we have little evidence to work on.
1) Panoplies post 600bc could be used with a decent degree of accuracy since they appear as the last timeframe nuragics fielded non guerrilla armies.
This would mean basically copying from what may seem outdated but in reality was still used (with the passage from bronze to iron as the only significant evolution according to Mr. Antonio Zara, who worked for 20 years on the Nora excavations and with Dr. Lilliu).
2) Try to recreate the "sardi pelliti" fighters, which have pretty much no hard archeological evidence for a recreation being tribal sheperds apt in guerrilla rather than pitched battles.
What's left of their description was this: eo quod qui ea induuntur, quasi in ferarum habitum transformentur
3) Use the southern puno-nuragics, which were actively part of the resistance against romans during the invasion of sardinia.
They could be simulated by allowing the recruitment of the punic "civic" units, meaning the militia and the citizen cavalry.
Not very exciting in game variation terms but a safe bet on the historical accuracy side.
The concept of "sardi pelliti" or "latrunculi mastrucati" or "sardi venales" and so on... can have one or more different meanings. I agree with many Sardinian scholars (i.e. Lilliu). It was just one of the numerous ways to discriminate the folks of Sardinia. Ciceronis painted them as barbarians, saying they were "liars like the Phoenicians". But Cicero, who hated the Sards, never went to Sardinia, and he never saw them in those days. There is also the tale of a famous quarrel between Cicero and an aristocrat of Sardinian origin, where you can read about Cicero's racism. Now, we cannot recreate the "sardi pelliti" by considering two lines written by a man (et al.) who hated them. Latin writers give no description about their uniform or weapons. The concept of "sheperds" is wrong too (archaeologically speaking, it is supported by nothing.). This bull perhaps started to circulate thanks to politicians like Lussu and others of the past 1900s, who defended the rights of the sheperds. The Sards of the time were pirates and mercenaries, not sheperds. The only way to recreate the Sardinian armies (not "pelliti") is to consider the bronze statuettes of the time (VII-III) and the numerous weapons still kept inside the local museums. Hope this helps a little.
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9950/sardiac7.jpg
Pirates usually had a legit "day job" though, you know. And poor highland shepherds and suchlike were among the most reliable source of mercenaries around anywhere over the millenia...
On the other side, not all sardinian tribes sported the same equipment or way of fighting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
Central Sardinia was a ground for hambush or hit and run rather than pitched battles and the interior tribes fought according to that, giving the romans a couple centuries of serious headhaches, while the plains of sulcis-campidano warranted a more standardized type of warfare.
Sardinians were not exactly a single entity at the time, customs varied deeply between interior and the coast.