Skándzá

Hi, I was wondering if someone knew the english name of the peoples living in modern Sweden 272 bc. I suppose the information is roughly uncertain, but are there any roman or greek sources which give us some names at all?

In most of the germanic settlements you can easily guess the tribes name by the word after "Gáwjám". What does Skandzawarjoz translate in english? Or Gotanoz? Is the latter by any chance the Gots, more known from the migrating period a couple of hundred years later?

Shed light on this, those who dare, thanks.

Well, I don't know. I think that the Romans and Greeks were not aware of the existence of Scandinavia in 272BC. Afaik they encountered Germans for the first time directly prior to the battle of Noreia around 113BC. I think Skandzawarjoz means "Skanza warriors", and the Gotanoz are just the Goths.

Radier,

Not that I know anything, but please see 'Philemon, Xenophon Lampsacenus,' and 'Pytheas.' I think Gaius Julius Solinus referred to Xenophon Lampsacenus, as well, I think Pytheas dates to the 4th century BC. Not sure about Philemon, he's a greek, but may be as late as Aug?

From Caius Plinius Secundus' NATURALIS HISTORIAE, Book 4, citing the 4th century BC report of Xenophon Lampsacenus...

[Chapter 13]

[Line 95]
Philemon Morimarusam a Cimbris vocari, hoc est mortuum mare, inde usque ad promunturium Rusbeas, ultra deinde Cronium. Xenophon Lampsacenus a litore Scytharum tridui navigatione insulam esse inmensae magnitudinis Balciam tradit, eandem Pytheas Basiliam nominat. feruntur et Oeonae, in quibus ovis avium et avenis incolae vivant, aliae, in quibus equinis pedibus homines nascantur, Hippopodes appellati, Phanesiorum aliae, in quibus nuda alioqui corpora praegrandes ipsorum aures tota contegant.

Rendering
Philemon claims the Cimbri's word Morimarusam, means the Dead Sea, there upwards towards the Rusbeas promontory, opposite of Cronium. There, Xenophon Lampsacenus sailed three days along the coast of Scytharum (error as it should be Scatinavum) to obtain a measurement of the distance to the Balciam Isle. Pytheas mentioned the very same names, the Basiliam and Oeonae isles, on whose wild coasts dwell sheep and wild-oats, according to the populace they produce a device called Hippopodes (horseshoe?) for the feet of their houses, from Phanesiorum, another report that someone stripped an ancient entombed corpse that was entirely over laid in gold.

[Line 96]
Incipit deinde clarior aperiri fama ab gente Inguaeonum, quae est prima in Germania. mons Saevo ibi, inmensus nec Ripaeis iugis minor, inmanem ad Cimbrorum usque promunturium efficit sinum, qui Codanus vocatur, refertus insulis, quarum clarissima est Scatinavia, inconpertae magnitudinis, portionem tantum eius, quod notum sit, Hillevionum gente quingentis incolente pagis: quare alterum orbem terrarum eam appellant. nec minor est opinione Aeningia.

Rendering
Now to clearly begin recounting the fame of the nations of Inguaeonum (followers of Ing?), which are the closest of Germany. Recently, the area between Mount Saevo and Ripaeis has not been continuously surveyed. All the way up to the promontory of Cimbrorum where the facing tide has caused a bowl shaped curve, that is called Codanus (The Tail). This is a place crowded with islands, that are distinct from Sweden, where except for that which is known, is a region of undefined magnitude, as likewise is much of its shape. In this district dwell the Hillevionum nation of 500 cantons, where formerly not as subordinates acquired land in this territory from those believed to be the Aeningia.

-------------
The information in Line 96 may date to the late 1st century BC or early 1st century AD, yet some of the descriptive part may have come from the Xenophon Lampsacenus report.

This may or may not answer the 1st part of your question? I think not, but this I believe, is all there is.

Thank you cmacq for the translations. My latin is a bit rusty. :yes:

I wonder what the word Scatinavum means...

Well, unfortunately due to time/work limitations with coding, ect. in EB1 (the map is finalized), so I have no part in the names of Germanic provinces or settlements. I believe SaFe and Thiudareiks worked on that, but I could be wrong.

the Sviones were the tribe which Sweden became named after- the capital is northward, near Uppsala... at the time, Skandinavia was split into more sub-kingdoms than Anglo-Saxon England (read the Heimskringla - great read).

The Gaut/Geat inhabit southern Sweden between the lakes and get absorbed like the Picts by the Scots.

The Danes are living on the furthest southern tip of Sweden: Skāne (Scania), their homeland for a long time before slowly conquering / jumping the Danish islands over to Jutland, where whatever remnnants were left after migration from the flooding during the beginning of the mini-Ice Age, those West Germanic (versus their East Norse dialect] Jutes and Anglo-Saxo-Frieslanders who were absorbed all the way to Schleswig-Holstein where the Dane border 'Denmark' was coined by Karl the Great - 'great' that is at mudering defenseless pagans

Otherwise, as CMACQ elaborates, the name Ultima Thule and Skandza come from travel tales of Puni-Greco-Roman

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Radier

My latin is a bit rusty. I wonder what the word Scatinavum means...

---

My reconstruction...

based on the use of Scatinavia in line 96.

Maybe Scatinaum or ...Scatinavm or Scatinavium (I think meaning, 'of the Scatini, Scani,' or 'Skāne' via blitz) would be a better rendering?
Not sure how Scytharum found its way into line 95, but the error must have occured somewhat early on?

There is one additional source of early info. on the subject. but I don't think it would be of any help to you?

Ὁμήρου Ὀδύσσεια
Homer's ODYSSEY

BOOK 11
τῆς δὲ πανημερίης τέταθ᾽ ἱστία ποντοπορούσης δύσετό τ᾽ ἠέλιος σκιόωντό τε πᾶσαι ἀγυιαί. ἡ δ᾽ ἐς πείραθ᾽ ἵκανε βαθυρρόου Ὠκεανοῖο. ἔνθα δὲ Κιμμερίων ἀνδρῶν δῆμός τε πόλις τε, ἠέρι καὶ νεφέλῃ κεκαλυμμένοι· οὐδέ ποτ᾽ αὐτοὺς ἠέλιος φαέθων καταδέρκεται ἀκτίνεσσιν, οὔθ᾽ ὁπότ᾽ ἂν στείχῃσι πρὸς οὐρανὸν ἀστερόεντα, οὔθ᾽ ὅτ᾽ ἂν ἂψ ἐπὶ γαῖαν ἀπ᾽ οὐρανόθεν προτράπηται, ἀλλ᾽ ἐπὶ νὺξ ὀλοὴ τέταται δειλοῖσι βροτοῖσι. νῆα μὲν ἔνθ᾽ ἐλθόντες ἐκέλσαμεν, ἐκ δὲ τὰ μῆλα εἱλόμεθ᾽· αὐτοὶ δ᾽ αὖτε παρὰ ῥόον Ὠκεανοῖο ᾔομεν, ὄφρ᾽ ἐς χῶρον ἀφικόμεθ᾽, ὃν φράσε Κίρκη.

Rendering
Each day the sail stretched out, to make us race the sea in stride, and out-run the shadow of the sun, as we sped across an endless way. In short measure, by this means, we came to the wave-filled ocean-stream, and to the Cimbri kith, kin, and town, all wrapped in a mist that never parts, to let the sun shine on. This budged not when starry heaven comes around, neither rising from the ground, nor when urged, sinks back down. Likewise by design, thrust in deathly darkness, cower mortal men, bound aboard a driven craft, that as goats are grasped in hand, yanked aside the ocean’s flow, and run aground ... all as Circe had fore-said.

--------------------------------
I tried to make it sound a bit like a poem. Its a story about the East Greeks sailing from the western Mediterranean to Denmark, as the 'Κιμμερίων' or Kimmeri are the later Κιμβρὀν, and the Latin Cimbri. Most likely the context was not the Late Bronze Age, as the poem implies, but rather the time of Homer in the 8th century BC. However, it may refer to Late Bronze Age contacts with Denmark with the later Cimbri added for some other ethnos. The point is that Homer knew of the Kimmeri/Cimbri in Denmark in the 8th century BC, but again its not Sweden.

There also is a citation of a Punic lost text that dates, I think, to about the 4th century BC, but it contains even less info therein.

I report, you decide.

Also...

there is a school that holds that Thule was Iceland, but later usurped as Sweden. I remember translating a Latin text, several years ago, about a Roman expedition that was sent, but forced to return early due to high seas. sorry for the spelling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cmacq

there is a school that holds that Thule was Iceland, but later usurped as Sweden. I remember translating a Latin text, several years ago, about a Roman expedition that was sent, but forced to return early due to high seas. sorry for the spelling.

---

And I've read somewhere it'd be Norway...

You, or any one else have any idea/opinion on the matter? I'm such a newbie, mnergh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The General

And I've read somewhere it'd be Norway...
You, or any one else have any idea/opinion on the matter? I'm such a newbie, mnergh.

---

Found it...

P CORNELI TACITI AGRICOLA

[Chapter 10]
Britanniae situm populosque multis scriptoribus memoratos non in comparationem curae ingeniive referam, sed quia tum primum perdomita est. Ita quae priores nondum comperta eloquentia percoluere, rerum fide tradentur. Britannia, insularum quas Romana notitia complectitur maxima, spatio ac caelo in orientem Germaniae, in occidentem Hispaniae obtenditur, Gallis in meridiem etiam inspicitur; septentrionalia eius, nullis contra terris, vasto atque aperto mari pulsantur. Formam totius Britanniae Livius veterum, Fabius Rusticus recentium eloquentissimi auctores oblongae scutulae vel bipenni adsimulavere. Et est ea facies citra Caledoniam, unde et in universum fama [est]: transgressis inmensum et enorme spatium procurrentium extremo iam litore terrarum velut in cuneum tenuatur. Hanc oram novissimi maris tunc primum Romana classis circumvecta insulam esse Britanniam adfirmavit, ac simul incognitas ad id tempus insulas, quas Orcadas vocant, invenit domuitque. Dispecta est et Thule, quia hactenus iussum, et hiems adpetebat. Sed mare pigrum et grave remigantibus perhibent ne ventis quidem perinde attolli, credo quod rariores terrae montesque, causa ac materia tempestatum, et profunda moles continui maris tardius impellitur.

Rendering
The population of Britain is largely balanced, whereas previous writers speak not of comparisons; preferring to reference by natural disposition. But because these were first pacified and those that followed had not yet announced their discovery, their territories are thoroughly integrated and faithfully presented. The Isle of Britain has largely become known by Rome and accordingly the geography and weather derives from Germany. Spain envelope the western region, in the middle that of Gaul is furthermore observed, and the far north of this region experiences not these contrasts, rather the vast and open pulse of the sea.

The entire form of Britain, as the venerated Livy and more recently Fabius Rusticus most eloquently guaranteed, is oblong or shield-like made as a double-edged axe. The appearance on that portion called Caledonia exists in popular renown: by sail crossed over an enormous distance and advanced far along this (jagged???) coastal region. This extraordinary seacoast was first circumnavigated by a Roman fleet, to affirm that Britain was indeed an island. And together at the proper season they went up to the unknown isles, which are called Orkneys, with the purpose of conquest. And even to catch sight of Thule, as they were ordered to seek that far until turned by stormy weather. But still seas and even painful rowing and likewise not even winds arose, as knowing infrequent land and mountains, also by reason of the weather, and even deliberate imperils imposed by profoundly unremitting sea monsters.

------------------------

It goes on about why they couldn't reach Thule. It think it was a citation of Pytheas that reported that he when north with the natives to the Orkneys, and from here it was a 7 day sail to Thule. I think, the return trip went by way of Norge, Denmark, and back to western France. This would fit the clockwise North Atlantic currents that deflect off northern Britain to the Orkneys, Shetlands, and Faroes; on towards Iceland, and then in the mainstream northeast into the Norwegian sea and along the coast. It appears that for some reason, just south of Iceland the Romans turned southwest and found themselves in a dead zone as far as currents are concerned? From here its only luck that they made it back to Britain in one piece to tell the story.

Wow. This is a fascinating read. Wish I could contribute more. But I can't. I do have a question for you Cmacq. Do you know of any bi-lingual versions of Tacitus' works?
Don't mean to interrupt this thread, please continue.

Try this

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/t...s_Agricola.htm

That Homer, or any other greek, knew about the Cimbri in the 8:th century bc I could never have imagined. If they had contact (by trade?) with people on modern Jylland they most likely have been in contact with Danes and Gauts in southern Sweden. I whish they could have written their experiences down for us to read.

However, thank's for the info guys. :2thumbsup:

Homer's presumably actually talking about the Cimmerians, a steppe people the Scythians drove into Central Europe and Anatolia. As usual with such steppe rejects they got assimilated into the more numerous local populations in a rather short order, and I'd regard it more than a little questionable to draw any connections between them and the Cimbri wandering out of somehwere near Denmark around half a millenia later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Watchman

Homer's presumably actually talking about the Cimmerians, a steppe people the Scythians drove into Central Europe and Anatolia. As usual with such steppe rejects they got assimilated into the more numerous local populations in a rather short order, and I'd regard it more than a little questionable to draw any connections between them and the Cimbri wandering out of somehwere near Denmark around half a millenia later.

---

Several problems with the steppes. First is the use of βαθυρρόου Ὠκεανοῖο or ocean-stream is the Atlantic. Next, the gate to the Greek underworld was not located on the steppes. In book 4, Homer says Asphodel (asphodel
where the dead, the burnt-out wraiths of mortals make their home) was beyond the Sun's west gate. Also, Circe's home island is considered to have been in the western Mediterranean. Then there are the problems with the Cimmeri (Κιμμερίους), Kimmeri (Κιμμερίων), Cimbri (Κιμβρὀν, Κιμβρική), and the later Danish Himmer-land.

The poem talks about outracing the sun, which would mean traveling west from Circe's home island till they reached the Atlantic. Then the poem states that it was a land wrapped in darkness and mists. Still, its for each to decide.

And what would an errant late Mycenean (or whatever the fig Big O now was) warlord be doing on the Atlantic ? The eastern Mediterranean basin and the Black Sea region, why, certainly, but the Pillars of Hercules are the whole sea away - nobody's going to coast-hug that far without good reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Watchman

And what would an errant late Mycenean (or whatever the fig Big O now was) warlord be doing on the Atlantic ? The eastern Mediterranean basin and the Black Sea region, why, certainly, but the Pillars of Hercules are the whole sea away - nobody's going to coast-hug that far without good reasons.

---

I'm not completely sure, but I think this little trip to the gates of hell was a Homeric add on, done to increase the wow factor by 100.

As the story starts, after seven years spent with the demi-goddess Calypso (Καλυψώ) Odysseus sailed from her home island of Ogygia (Ὠγυγίη), but was shipwrecked and washed ashore on Scheria (Σχερίη or Σχερία, traditionally the same as Corfu Κέρκυρα or Κόρκυρα), which was within 80 miles of Ithaca. Its on Scheria that the story of Odysseus’ return from Troy was told.

First, after the capture of Troy, Odysseus takes his small fleet to raid Ismaros (Ἴσμαρος), on an island located just off the Thracian coast. This was quickly followed by a counter attack in which Odysseus was forced to flee. Now, as his small fleet he begain to return to Ithaca by turning south of the Peloponnesus, but here a storm that lasted about 216 hours, forced them off course. Now Odysseus’ fleet found the land of the Λωτοφάγοι, possibly a reference to the land of the date eaters; Djerid or Tunisia (about 800 miles from where the storm hit them). From here he sailed to the Isle of the Cyclops (Κύκλωψ or round eye), on to Aeolus’ (Αἴολος) island, and finally to the land of the Laestrygonians, where he loses most of his fleet and army. The Laestrygonians may have been on the coast of North Africa west of Tunisia, while the islands of the Cyclops and Aeolus were located in the Aeolian archipelago (immediately north of eastern Sicily). The next location is the home island of the demi-goddess Circe (Κίρκη or ‘the falcon’), called Aeaea. Tradition has placed it near the bay of Naples. After a year or more, from Aeaea, Odysseus sailed to the Atlantic, on to the land of the Kimmer, and the gate to the underworld.

Again, I think the point is not that the Homeric world of Odysseus knew, but rather Homer's Hellenic world knew of the Kimmeri/Cimbri in Denmark.

I am very sceptical about Σχερίη being Corcyra, I mean Ithaca is practically just opposite the place, how could Σχερίη be presented as such an exotic place in the Odyssey? The way I see it, it is either an unidentifiable place for us or just a fictional island.

Personally I just suspect Homer mixed and matched what the Mediterraneans knew of the world with stuff he pulled right out of his arse to make the story more interesting. It's not like that was an exactly unusual practice - didn't Herodotus describe some mountains in Persia being home to gold-hoarding ants the size of sheep or something...?

Anyway, the Phoenicians probably had trade- and supply bases in Iberia and Morocco already in the 11th century BC so by Homer's time at least cursory knowledge of the Atlantic seoaboard ought to have been readily accessible.

There's a couple of things that make the association of the name Cimbri/Cimmeri with Denmark kinda dodgy IMHO though. For one thing, around Homer's estimated period the Cimmerians had only recently been evicted from the steppes and it is very difficult to see how they could have had meaningful influence that far - virtually whole Europe - away, doubly so given they cannot ever have been very numerous compared to the various settled populaces along the way into which they assimilated in fairly short order. Plus given the radically different nature of ecology involved it is difficult to see how the old "Cimmerian" identity could have survived the transit.

For another, assuming the Cimbri in Denmark (possible Cimmerian links nonwithstanding) that early seems to run into certain credibility issues methinks. The next we hear of a group by that name is the famous late 2nd century BC migration which the Romans eventually stomped flat. To assume this was the same bunch would require assuming some sort of tribal identity continuity for over half a millenia, in an illiterate society, in a region and period characterised by considerable fluidity and constant major changes (what with all the stuff with the Hallstatt and La Tene developements, the "Celticisation" of pretty much the whole temperate belt of Europe, the associated shifts in trade-routes, the implications this had for the established socioeconomic structures further north...) - a rather tall order I would think.

Personally I suspect Homer just used the name of a known, once powerful but now rapidly fading and hence already somewhat quasi-mythic people to add a little color to his narrative. When you think about it, associating such a "lost people" with the gates of the Underworld in the story actually kind of makes certain kind of mythic/narrative sense too.
Also, the Cimmerians apparently survived the longest as a distinct entity in their Anatolian refuge; and weren't the parts of Asia Minor away from the immediate proximity of the Aegean the "Here There Be Dragons" 'Wild East' to the Greeks, where they cheerfully located all manner of legendary monsters and events - suitably near that the audience knew of the locale, yet distant and ill known enough you could get away with it ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiberius Nero

I am very sceptical about Σχερίη being Corcyra, I mean Ithaca is practically just opposite the place, how could Σχερίη be presented as such an exotic place in the Odyssey? The way I see it, it is either an unidentifiable place for us or just a fictional island.

---

Just telling the tradition, as it seemed strange to me as well. As far as Homer's Kimmeri, as has been often pointed out; they may have nothing to do with the Cimmeri? The later were first mentioned in the Near East around 774 BC, and the last contemporary record possibly in 626 BC. The Cimmeri even raid western Anatolia after Homer's death.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...mans+in+demark

Then again we have the Sea People, which appear to occure at the end of the Tumulus and start of the Urnfield culures in temperate Europe and help end the Mycenean, Hittite/Anatolian, Lavant, and Egyptian (New Kingdom) kingdoms?

I personally associate the Naue sword (Balkans, Thrace, N. Italy) and Tumulus cultures thereabouts with the Sea Peoples... don't forget about the mysterious disappearance of the Thracians (second most populous people, next to the Indians: Herodotus had no reason to lie on that) pretty interesting concerning the dark ages around 1200BC or so

...what, the Thracians disappeared somewhere before Romanizing and then getting assimilated by every eejit who tramped through those parts during the Migrations...?

wha? come again? :dizzy2:

The Thracians are still here, albeit a bit (or maybe a bit more) mixed up.

well the Thracians definitely lost their identity and considering how populous they were claimed to be, it doesnt make sense- the Greeks were still Greeks and the Celts were still Celts for quite a while... there is more to the story than Roman assimilation. the lack of any reference to this strange occurence tells that the surrounding peoples were already accustomed to their disappearance/loss of identity.

the usage of the area known as Thrace doesn't count- just like the fact that Great Britain was a term that applied to non-Brythonic or Pretani

Actually Romanized Thracians lived for quite a long time between Moravia and the current Bulgarian-Greek border, before being assimilated by slavic and mongoloid populations (only culturally, under the domination of an elite ruling class, the reason for a lack of any mongoloid features now - royalty loves interbreeding for some weird reason:wall:), minus Romanians (daco-, megleno-, istro-, macedo-).

But there is an unofficial theory that Latin and Thracian dialects belonged to the same language group, if that's where you're aiming.

Do recall that the line "most numerous people in the world" (or however it now specifically went) would AFAIK have included branches like the Dacians, whom the Romans took over only rather later than the Thracians proper and who thus formed a somewhat separate group.

Moreover, the region was later overrun multiple times by diverse Migrations groups and assimilated into the Slavic supergroup... I don't particularly think you need any "strange occurrences" there.

Also, whereas for example Gaul and Hellas were already quite urbanised by the time Rome took them over, Thrace AFAIK wasn't - meaning that the sociocultural side effects of the ensuing changes would have been that much more acute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ayce

(only culturally, under the domination of an elite ruling class, the reason for a lack of any mongoloid features now...

---

Well, there would also have been the detail actual ethnic, Asiatic Huns would've been something of a drop in the ocean among all the odds and ends the confederation had picked up between the Carpathians and the Altai - nevermind now that the steppe nomads in general would have been quite noticeably outnumbered by the far more populous settled peoples. Gross head count was never the strong suit of the horse nomads.

Quote:

---

...royalty loves interbreeding for some weird reason:wall:)

---

Nothing weird about it. It makes arranging things with other elite groups considerably easier. Why do you figure European royalty were eventually so thoroughly intermarried avoiding consanguinity became challenging ?

I was being ironic, I am aware of the pluses of interbreeding, but I was thinking the disadvantage of future generations having serious health problems would be enough to deter people from doing that.

Good point on the populations being picked up on the way.