Kosovo declares independence from Serbia

Thought this deserved a new thread. Let's try to keep the bickering to a minimal, yes?

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PRISTINA, Kosovo (CNN) -- Kosovo has formally declared its independence from Serbia and become the world's newest state in a move opposed by Serbia and Russia but backed by many western governments.

Lawmakers in the legislature of the former Serbian province approved the declaration of independence at an extraordinary session Sunday afternoon. It was read out in Albanian, Serbian and English by prime minister Hashim Thaci before the approval of state symbols including Kosovar's new national flag and anthem.

Thaci said that Kosovo was an "independent and democratic" state, adding: "From this day onwards, Kosovo is proud, independent and free."

CNN's Alessio Vinci, reporting from the Kosovar capital Pristina, said that thousands of Kosovo's Albanian population had braved the freezing wind and cold to sing, dance, wave flags in the streets and light firecrackers ahead of the much anticipated vote. Some revellers were even said to be firing gunshot into the air. "It's been like this for several hours now," he said.

"It's a day they have been waiting for for such a long time that many of them are trying to figure out just how they got to this day."

President George Bush said Sunday that Kosovo's status must be resolved before the Balkans can become stable and that the United States supports the Ahtisaari plan which calls for a form of supervised independence.

The European Union decided Saturday to launch a mission of about 2,000 police and judicial officers to replace the United Nations mission that has been controlling the province since the end of the war with Serbia in 1999.

Kosovo has been under U.N. supervision and patrolled by a NATO-led peacekeeping force since the end of the three-month war, in which NATO warplanes pounded Serbia to roll back a campaign of "ethnic cleansing" of the province's Albanian population under former then-President Slobodan Milosevic.

The disputed province is dear to the Serbs, Orthodox Christians who regard it as Serbian territory. But it is equally coveted by Kosovo's ethnic Albanians, Muslims who have a 90 percent majority, and two years of talks on its final status ended in failure last December.

"Its status must be resolved in order for the Balkans to be stable," President Bush told reporters during a news conference in Tanzania Sunday.

Bush said the Ahtisaari plan -- named after former Finnish President Marti Ahtisaari -- is the best option. The proposal would give Kosovo limited statehood under international supervision.

President Bush added that "it's in Serbia's interest to be aligned with Europe and the Serbian people can know that they have a friend in America." VideoWatch the changing political climate in the Balkans »

"We are heartened by the fact that the Kosovo government has clearly proclaimed its willingness and its desire to support Serbian rights in Kosovo," Bush said.

Thaci said Thursday he would establish a new government office for minorities and it would protect the rights of minorities after the province declares independence.

Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic has promised his country will refrain from using force against Kosovo after independence, though he has warned that Serbia will take punitive diplomatic, political, and economic measures against the province.

Russia -- Serbia's historic ally -- has remained opposed to Kosovo's independence. Russia, which has fought two wars against separatist rebels in its southwestern republic of Chechnya, has said that U.S. and European support for Kosovo's independence could lead to an "uncontrollable crisis" in the Balkans.

The EU said Saturday that "around 1,900 international police officers, judges, prosecutors and customs officials and approximately 1,100 local staff will be based in headquarters in Pristina or located throughout the judicial and police system in Kosovo."

The EU mission's objective is "to support the Kosovo authorities by monitoring, mentoring and advising on all areas related to the rule of law, in particular in the police, judiciary, customs and correctional services," it said.

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Thoughts? This seems to have a very much pro west backing, while Russia is against it.

Gives people yet another chance for international posturing by proxy. Let's hope it stays at that.

It'll all be for nothing when Mr. Blair becomes president of Europe and bans nation states though...

Great. Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism. Let's have another world war over this [area] of land, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Great. Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism. Let's have another world war over this [area] of land, shall we?

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Don't like it - stay out of it. It's not insignificant to everyone...



I'm curious which country will the first to recognize Kosovo...

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.

I wonder what the mostly Serbian regions in the north of Kosovo will do. Will they demand to be allowed to return to the bosom of Mother Serbia?

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I condone this.

Not because I'm buying any arguments of Serbian nationalism but for I can't stand any more ethnic partitioning in these lands. :no:

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this [area] of land

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This was uncalled for Vlad. Nobody's home deserves being called that. Even Falklands.

agreed. Changed. -Kukri
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Bleh. I'm with Bismark on the subject of the Balkans. So it will be very easy for me to avoid bickering on this one. I couldn't have cared less when they were part of Serbia and I couldn't care less now they are not. They'd have to declare political union with Mozambique to pique my interest.

I touched this briefly with a good friend of mine from Serbia. She said that her social network felt the loss, even if they are all for Europe and against serbian nationalism. It kinda mirrors my personal views about the topic. Being part of an ethnic minority I know that the majority, even with most dubious claims has a hard time to "let go". We seem to be all little children in this way.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.

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Not so sure... I'm thinking Iceland or some other small country like that...

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Bleh. I'm with Bismark on the subject of the Balkans. So it will be very easy for me to avoid bickering on this one. I couldn't have cared less when they were part of Serbia and I couldn't care less now they are not. They'd have to declare political union with Mozambique to pique my interest.

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“If there is ever another war in Europe, it will come out of some damned silly thing in the Balkans"

Spoken by a German... The biggest irony of all.:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Spoken by a German... The biggest irony of all.:laugh4:

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EDIT: I see what you meant. Thanks. :)

Well, good for them, I guess...

as long as people don´t start shooting each other again...whatever

Congratulations to the people of Kosovo! May this work out for them better than it previously has for many nations.

Now to go talk to my Serbian friend...

apparently albania was the first state to recognize the sovereignty of the kosovar republic.

btw, the serbian PM said he blamed the US for being "ready to violate the international order for its own military interests". could someone explain what he means by that? what military interests are furthered by kosovar independence?

Since I assume this the majority of Kosovos populations will: huzzah.

Apart from that, `tis silly.

The violence begins...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...18/2164981.htm

https://img523.imageshack.us/img523/...ofridomrm7.jpg

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Originally Posted by Big_John

apparently albania was the first state to recognize the sovereignty of the kosovar republic.

btw, the serbian PM said he blamed the US for being "ready to violate the international order for its own military interests". could someone explain what he means by that? what military interests are furthered by kosovar independence?

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Well I guess he means on the biggest American military base in Europe that is located in Kosovo...

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The violence begins...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...18/2164981.htm

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Pah, this is just the scenario of Wag the Dog coming true.

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Well I guess he means on the biggest American military base in Europe that is located in Kosovo...

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Well apart from the fact that it isn't .
Do you instead mean the biggest American base that has been built from scratch in Europe in the past few decades ?


But anyway heres a thought for people to ponder , hypothetical of course .
If a group like Altzan got a situation where there was foriegn intervention and the Latino popuation was a majority in favour of independance , should the Southwestern States be allowed to declare independance from the United States ?

When you say 'majority in favor of independence', do you mean a majority of the population was Latino, or the majority of the Latino population?
It's apples and oranges, and I'll explain...

In the United States, we have a strong federal government, and we would like to hold onto all our states. I think if Hawaii wanted to split, we wouldn't have that big a problem, but Southwest? No. Definitely not.

In Yugoslavia, it was a mishmash of cultures and identities. Serbs, Bulgarians, Slavs, Albanians, Macedonians, Bosnians, the list goes on. When Yugoslavia split up, we get a bunch of smaller nations that have their own agenda and identity.

The difference?
Yugoslavia split up, the United States didn't, and those in former Yugoslavia have independent traditions and languages. While the United States may have different ethnic groups and languages, Americans identify each other first as 'Americans', then as 'Irish-American', or 'Italian'.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Well I guess he means on the biggest American military base in Europe that is located in Kosovo...

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ok, but even if this is so, how does an independent kosovo further US military interests? was serbia going to close the base or something?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

But anyway heres a thought for people to ponder , hypothetical of course . If a group like Altzan got a situation where there was foriegn intervention and the Latino popuation was a majority in favour of independance , should the Southwestern States be allowed to declare independance from the United States ?

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Along a similar vein: What separates the Kosovars from a white separatist militia in Montana? Time? Force of arms?

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

The difference?
Yugoslavia split up, the United States didn't, and those in former Yugoslavia have independent traditions and languages. While the United States may have different ethnic groups and languages, Americans identify each other first as 'Americans', then as 'Irish-American', or 'Italian'.

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For the US there is a precedence (Civil War) if the South had of won then there would have been a precedence for it to continue to splinter.

The fact that the North won sets a precedence that in the US you cannot quietly leave. I think though if the US broke up into its member states (much like USSR and the satellite states within the iron curtain) then those states would probably fracture again.

On the whole around the world we generally see a trend of nations getting larger. They might fracture and then reform, but actual nations with the same Prime Minister / President have a tendency to form either greater nations or blocs or trading communities. Now when most nations gain independence they do tend to fracture (India and Pakistan) but given time and economic prosperity (the gravity in nation building) states tend to grow together.

I think the best thing for K and S are to go forth, become more democratic, play nicely and in about 15 to 25 years as they both gain in economic prosperity they will probably reunite in some sort of trading bloc.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Along a similar vein: What separates the Kosovars from a white separatist militia in Montana? Time? Force of arms?

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A majority who are forced to live under a Government that does not represent them. The people of Montana have this. The Kosovars don't.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism.

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hmmm... for Russia?
well, if Russia would like to play a victim of Western imperialism, exactly this issue would hardly be an excuse for it

Russia seems to always (sometimes correctly) feel paranoid about Western powers (France, Britain). Russia also has a strong tradition of Slavic protectionism, probably stemming from it's mixed Byzantine heritage. Those factors make Serbia and it's Slavic inhabitants something of a Russian friend. Playing on the supposed 'Western Imperialism', Russia is the 'defender of Slavic heritage'. If anything, it's an attempt to look really powerful and benevolent.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

Russia seems to always (sometimes correctly) feel paranoid about Western powers (France, Britain). Russia also has a strong tradition of Slavic protectionism, probably stemming from it's mixed Byzantine heritage. Those factors make Serbia and it's Slavic inhabitants something of a Russian friend. Playing on the supposed 'Western Imperialism', Russia is the 'defender of Slavic heritage'. If anything, it's an attempt to look really powerful and benevolent.

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Considering we're smacking a missile defense shield right next to their border, I don't see why they shouldn't be paranoid that we see them as an enemy still.