Volga-Bulgars in High Era

Ok, so I became enthralled by the promise of a good allround Javelin unit in the form of Bashkorts and decided to try out the Volga-Bulgars.

I decided to try them on High/expert as this would be the biggest challenge given their proximity to where the Golden Horde will appear in the near future.

Wow, the VB's have got it rough. Their king is only 2* and most heirs begin with the Drinking vices. They have one, reasonably poor province and almost no army. Added to this, They have the Russians on the northern border, a rebel force stronger than their army to the south, the Cumans to the south west. To the east is the tempting province of Ryanzan but his seems very prone to religious rebellions.

To cap off thier difficult starting position, the only wealthy and developed province nearby is Muscovy, held by the Russians and well garrisoned across a River. Their army has decent options, mainly the very very cheap and nasty Bashkorts, a bargain at 150 Florins and only 22 upkeep, but the only good infantry available besides them is the Kazanchi's, a good Halbard unit, but a whopping 400 Florins to build and 70 upkeep!

I've found so far that money is the biggest problem, as well as a lack of long range missile units what out range horse archers. I'm now tryign to take Muscovy in desperation, I think I can take out the agrrison, but I'm not sure about what sort of troops the Russians can bring out to try and liberate it.

anyone played VB's in high and got some advice? Also does anyone know the building requirements for Varangian Swordsmen?

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Originally Posted by Heidrek

Also does anyone know the building requirements for Varangian Swordsmen?

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The second Swordsmith building. Also only in Novgorod, Smolensk and Kiev. Think you can only train these in Early though. . .

The Kursybays are a nice spear unit. Same as Chivalric Sergeants but one less defence and one higher morale. Cheaper to build and support too. Lower build requirements also, just the second level Spear building.

Yeah, I played the Volga Bulgars in High.... twice.

FIRST ATTEMPT

1. Floundered in poverty
2. Took a couple of wasteland provinces
3. Got steamrolled by the Mongols

SECOND ATTEMPT

1. Floundered in poverty
2. Took a couple of wasteland provinces
3. Got steamrolled by the Mongols

:wall:

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Originally Posted by BAD

The second Swordsmith building. Also only in Novgorod, Smolensk and Kiev. Think you can only train these in Early though. . .

The Kursybays are a nice spear unit. Same as Chivalric Sergeants but one less defence and one higher morale. Cheaper to build and support too. Lower build requirements also, just the second level Spear building.

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Oh great, the only real heavy infantry unit available to them, and I can't ever make them? That bites..... that really only leaves the very expensive Kazanchi's. Not exactly an appealing prospect. I'm thinking that it's going to have to be a case of Bashkorts all the way.

I've decided that the only hope for the VB's is going to be to take Muscovy from the Russians and make that my new home. I'll defend Volga Bulgaria against the GH when they arrive, but I'm prepared to lose it if necessary. Muscovy will serve me much better in the long run.

I've built 5 catapults to use to fight my way into Muscovy. If I can take Muscovy and use that as my base, there's hope - I can hold off the horde for a long time there with relatively few troops thanks to the river....

Still going to be mighty tough.

Heh, good luck. Frankly, I've not yet dared to try the VB's in high, it seemed a bit, I don't know, suicidal? Bakshorts might be nice, but they simply won't stand up to hordes of Mongols. Rather low defense and little armor, plus only 60 men means they can get ground up pretty well by good cavalry, which the Mongols kinda hava a lot of. Meanwhile, Kurysbas are decent, but will get shot to pieces by Mongol archery if defending a bridge. You're main hope, imo, is that the Mongols decide to go south instead of north. But perhaps I'm just being a tad cynical...

Heidrek you can add anything your tactics, discoveries and advice in the XL-guide section. AFAIK, there is nothing on high when it comes to V-B.

Ok, well I've taken Muscovy from the Russians in a nasty bridge battle. I pummeled them with Artillery from my side of the bridge, while they just stood there and took it. I also had half a unit of Merc Pavise Arbalesters that I marched down to the river line and started firing from.

The Ruskies soon started to shoot back at the Mercs, which was the whole point - get them to use up their arrows on him.

After running out of artillery, I marched my forces across both bridges and went hand to hand.

It turned out that once I took Muscovy the russians had nothing left. The People of Novgorod seem to own everything in sight. At 1230 the Mongols turned up in force. I sold up everything in Volga Bulgaria except the castle and left 1 unit in there to defend it. Likewise Kazar. They are doomed to fall, so I might as well get what I can from them and leave the Horde nothing.

The Horde is now attacking Muscovy and I have a pitched Bridge battle on my hands. I've infliced heavy losses to them, but they keep coming.

Bashkorts have proved brilliant in this battle. A hail of Javelins killed the Horde's general and these guys fought the Mongol heavy cavalry back across to their side of the bridge.

I've adopted a "car crusher" formation that seems to work pretty well at the moment. The last remaining Bashkorts, only about 19 left now form a shield wall a little way back from my end of the bridge. I also have a unit of heavy cav on each side of it of to the side.

Enemies cross the bridge and move to engage the Bashkorts, at which time my heavy cavalry charges from both sides into their flanks and mashes them. I then disengage them and move them back to their positions.

even if I win this fight, I'm not sure I can survive another one the same, I'm simply running out of troops and can't replenish them fast enough.

Yeah, that's the problem I had dude. Just not enough troops or troop-building capacity to counter the Mongols.

Playing the Volga-Bulgars in Early is heaps of fun, though, as you have a lot more time to conquer (with some pretty cool cavalry) and strengthen your empire before the Horde arrives.

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Imitate a migration. Move westwards, capture a province, then abandon the eastern one, or leave with negligible forces. Spank the purples or Central European sedentaries and try to settle somewhere around the Danube. :charge:

Once you established a homeland you can fight to get back what was yours. :duel:
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Imitate a migration. Move westwards, capture a province, then abandon the eastern one, or leave with negligible forces. Spank the purples or Central European sedentaries and try to settle somewhere around the Danube.

Once you established a homeland you can fight to get back what was yours.

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LOL:laugh4:

that works since V-B has replaced the Russians as THE hardest faction in high.

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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Imitate a migration. Move westwards, capture a province, then abandon the eastern one, or leave with negligible forces. Spank the purples or Central European sedentaries and try to settle somewhere around the Danube. :charge:

Once you established a homeland you can fight to get back what was yours. :duel:
.

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Exactly my strategy. I won the bridge battle against the horde, but got worn down. Re started and firmly set my sights on Muscovy. Built up a force and attacked Muscovy, taking it a few turns before the Horde arrived. Seemed like a very small Horde appearance, either that or they all went south.

I've even managed to defend Volga-Bulgaria! I stripped it of everything but the Castle (upgraded to Cat. Towers) and Spearmakers Guild and left a 9 man unit of Bashkorts in it, with one in production while my main army sat in Muscovy.

The Horde sent 1 unit of heavy cavalry (the Khan himself) to take VB, but I met them on the field and beat them with the Bashkorts!! Those guys are worth their weight in gold. the Horde tried again a few times with minor raiding forces but the Bashkorts have always beaten them back. I now have a 3* Bashkort general in Volga-Bulgaria!

I've moved on to now take Novgorod as well, giving me an impressive 3 provinces!

I can't really see much of a future for the campaign though. Long term I simply wont be able to compete with other factions due to an appaling unit roster in the High Era. I can make Urban Militia, but don't even get Militia Sergeants. I my only infantry options are spears, Bashkorts or Kazanchi's (400 to build, 75 upkeep!!) Archers? Vanilla only.

I don't see how the VB's can stand against factions European catholic armies full of Arb's, Knights, CMAA's, Halb's and the like. there is no point to building most of their tech tree as you don't get new units for many of them.

Heidrick, this is why the VB's can be a fun challenge. A couple notes: First of all, don't discount Steppe Heavy Cavalry. They can mow down arbs and archers of all kinds, and against infantry, they can rain down volleys of armor piercing arrows. Learning to use Steppe Heavies is well worth your time. After that, I would also definitely put some stock in gunpowder units for sure. Arquebusiers in combination with Steppe Heavies and Cherny Klobuki can result in some very nice mass routs. The only thing to watch for is any really heavy cav, as those will likely give you some issues. A couple units of Kazanchis can work well to alleviate this, and the cost will be offset by the fact that your army is otherwise very cheap on maintenance. The catch obviously will be making sure that you fight as many battles as possible in open field, with as few trees as possible, and no rain. But believe me when I say that Arquebusiers in mass numbers can be very, very devestating.

Thanks, I'll remember that!

What I can't get my head around is how I'm going to win offensive battles though against a standard formation of Chiv. Sergents defending a hill backed by Arb's and supported by CMAA's and Halb's.

For my SHC to be any good they have to get well within Arb range and the Arb's or even xbows will cut them to pieces, especially if they are the Pavise variety. I can't see what I can useto break the shield wall either, I guess I could march ranks of Arquebusiers upt ot hem and try that, and try using the Bashkorts javelins on them, but then how do I answer the heavy infantry?

I'm playing on expert so there's a +4 global morale bonus to the CPU making it tougher to rout them....any advice welcome - I'd really like to win as the VB's.

In that sort of case, you have to realize that you aren't going to win those battles. Instead, withdraw, invade somewhere else, go around, and force them to attack you instead. The effect you're going for is to make sure the enemy routs, and then mercilessly chase them off the map with your lighter cav. As for the Arbs/halberds/Chiv seargeants thing, if you're in open field, I offer this suggestion: scatter your cavalry in a wide arc that will 'engulf' the enemy, with the flanks coming around to the sides of the enemy. Preferably, you should have Arquebusiers in the middle. From there, they can let a couple volleys off. Force them to come to you, then withdraw them backwards and collapse around the enemies arbs and try to surround them. Point is, to not engage Arbs in a missile duel, but to run them down with Steppe heavies. Once they're out of the way, the combo of gun powder, javelins, armor piercing arrows, your numbers, and the great opportunities for flanking should enable you to cause a rout from chiv seargeants and halberds, both of which have some problems with morale. Once you have them routed, the battle is yours.

Honestly, I think your biggest problem will be terrain/weather and heavy cavalry. Heavy infantry shouldn't pose a problem, as your roster is more than capable of routing many heavy infantry before you have to engage them much.

Hmmm, I'll take that on board and give it a shot so to speak! I'll let you know how I get on.

Stop the wining and fight like a nomad! All you need on the plains are step heavies. Get their armor up and :charge:

SHC do indeed seem to be the key unit. AP missiles and beefy charge with decent melee stats and 5 armour base to resist return fire from other, inferior archery troops.

I think my army is going to be more or less SHC, Bashkorts, Kazanchis and perhaps Chernye Klobuki's or Steppe cavalry as dedicated Archers breakers and pursiung troops.

I've expanded my domain to include Smolensk, and Lithuania is about to fall to my siege troops. I've also got the Russian leader bottled up and cut off the rest of his nation in Livonia and have dropped an army in to his province to smash him. The Russian Grand Prince is only 16 years old and has just been crowned, his father having died of illness last year. He's too young to have an Hier, so I'm hoping that this will end the Russians as a faction.

If so I intend to find and bribe some of the their now rebel 4+ command generals as they are much better than my own ones. These ex Russian generals will form the backbone of my army in the field. I'll just need to title them up to boost their loyalty and get them married off to a princess if I can find one.

It'll be a tough fight in Livonia, but one I intend to win. Just need to make sure I trap and kill the Grand Prince so he can't get away.

Be careful in using your SHCs and Chernye Klobuki's.
You can use your SHCs to distract and kill there heavy cav but you must keep your eye on them at all times as SHC are to slow to outrun heavy cav once they start there charge. I use my SHC more as very mobile AP archers in the beginning of the battle and to charge home when most units are engage and there ammo is depleted.

Chernye Klobuki's are light cav with a charge of heavy cav. You should, however, still use them as light cav for most of the battle because they will die very quickly once they are engaged. Keep them away from the fighting only using them to chase of routing enemies. Only move them in position (in the back of the enemy line) when both armies have been engaged for some time and the decision is near. Then charge the right unit(s) for a mass route. Just make sue you wait long enough and disengage your Chernyes immidiatly after the charge.

Do you know if Chernye Klobuki's are Fast, or just have the normal cavalry speed (20 run?)?

Also a question about Bashkorts. I really love these guys, they make excellent assasins, javelining Generals to death, and I know they get the spears anti cavalry bonus (+1 atk, +4 Def?), but do they also get the rank bonus of spear units?

Bashkorts form the backbone of my army and I'd like to get the most out of them I can.

Updating my VB campaign:

Had to go back to an old save game today because the game crashed every time I tried to reload my quicksave. that really sucked because the quicksave was for the battle where I had the Russian Grand prince bottled up and was about to engage him in a pitched battle to end his line!!! GRRR!!!

Anyway, the most recent autosave was back about 3 or 4 years when i was taking Smolensk so I went back to that. I'm getting back to the same position again, but with a minor change. The Russian King, a 6* general tried to take Novgorod, which was only lightly defended by 2 units of Bashkorts, 1 kazanchis, a SHC, about 1/2 a unit of merc. longbows and a slav javeliniers. The russians came with Arb's, Boyars, heaps of HA's, Voi's and Militia Sergeants and out numbered me about 2:1.

I did however manage to draw out the king with my SHC, and pelted him with Javelins from the Bashkorts until he died. I ended up winning the battle as well which is always nice!

The new leader of the ruskies is a 2* Natural Leader that is Eager to Retreat and has Weak Principles - a much better ruler for me to be up against!

Question: if a ruler has Weak Principles, does it reduce the brirbe cost of all of this units everywhere?

Cherny Klobuki are at normal cavalry speed. However, I generally up them to 22 myself, as they really should be fast on account of the fact they have basically no armor. If you have Gnome editor, its really quite simple and easy.

Bashkorts do not get rank bonuses like normal spears, and I doubt it would make much difference even if they did, as they're so disgorganized as a unit that I'm not sure they'd ever even get into ranks to begin with.:sweatdrop:

I'm not sure 100% on the ruler and weak principles thing, but my guess is it doesn't affect his generals. However, I've never really tested it.

I had a go at the VB last year. I ended up creating Jihad after Jihad to build up a cheap army and auto-calcing all the battles with the GH. Somehow I managed to fend the Horde off and still had about 3 provences and several Jihad markers left to move forwards. It wasn't an exciting experience though so my quest for world domination ended there.

I've never launched a Jihad. When you build one, do you automatically get troops for it like the Catholic Crusade does? Are there special Jihad only units?

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Originally Posted by Heidrek

Had to go back to an old save game today because the game crashed every time I tried to reload my quicksave. that really sucked because the quicksave was for the battle...

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I've had that happen before, the quicksave game crashing upon loading if I'd saved just before a battle. Other times with the same thing, it loads just fine.

Bit random.

pissed me right off - lost about an hour of realtime game play that I had to re do to get back to where I was.

Still, almost worth it to javelin the Grand Prince of Russia to a tree!

kamikhaan: I wanted to know if they got the rank bonus to see if I could use them in a true Spear wall, but on that shoots at you when you try to close with it! unfortunately without the rank bonus of +1 atk and +2 def they won't hold up against infantry nearly as well.

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Originally Posted by Heidrek

I've never launched a Jihad. When you build one, do you automatically get troops for it like the Catholic Crusade does?

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Yes you do.

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Originally Posted by Heidrek

Are there special Jihad only units?

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Not really, no. There's no Muslim equivalent to the Catholic crusading knights or their Order Foot. It is possible some of your Jihad's free units will include troops you can't train yet, but that's pretty much it.

good to know.....I feel a holy war coming on!!

I keep getting relaod crashes. I quicksave before a battle, then fight it and everything seems to go ok. If I then relaod it and autocalc the same battle it screws up the save. After the battle the game CTD. Doesn't matter what I do from that point on the save is useless. No matter how I fight the battle, or even if I retreat etc. before the fight it just crashes!!

france is once again the world superpower in my current game. just about every XL High game I platy - France seems to be the nation to beat.

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Originally Posted by Heidrek

I keep getting relaod crashes. I quicksave before a battle, then fight it and everything seems to go ok. If I then relaod it and autocalc the same battle it screws up the save. After the battle the game CTD. Doesn't matter what I do from that point on the save is useless. No matter how I fight the battle, or even if I retreat etc. before the fight it just crashes!!

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Yeah, the quicksave issue is a known bug with MTW. It has its uses, but most people have learned not to rely on it because of the corrupt save problem.

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Originally Posted by Heidrek

france is once again the world superpower in my current game. just about every XL High game I platy - France seems to be the nation to beat.

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They often are. ~;)

I'm thinking that I'm going to have to go heavy on the Steppe Heavy Cavalry against the French. They've made plenty of enemies, so I'm going to have to bring the Steppes into the party and see if I can carve off a piece of their empire for my own.

The VB's would be seriously lost without those Bahkorts....they've won me so many battles. fighting cavalry in forests or as a shooting shield wall they do a great job, especially raining Javelins on attacking troops or assasinating an enemy general with those armour piercing Javs.

If I can pick up some decent aggressive infantry I'll be able to field an effective force, but I'd need to bribe someone to get access to them.

Edit: Update: I've now secured most of the Steppes. Finland belongs to Sweeden, but I've just driven the French out of their foothold in Estonia and taken Lesser Khazar to give me assess to the dead sea. Aside from Khazar (GH and rebells fighting for this one) and a couple of others, I control the steppes. I've also taken Scotland, but I think I'm going to abandon it as soon as I can leave I don't think I can recruit the Clansmen because for once I'm not catholic, and without them the province is pretty worthless!

I'm doing ok, but will hopefully be able to expand a bit once I've got into France's domain.