I'm curious: what's the advantage of spears over pikes?
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I'm curious: what's the advantage of spears over pikes?
Not much of one, unless you want a wider front. Spears get the rank bonus for 2 ranks behind the front, while pikes get 4 ranks. Therefore, pikes are optimal at 5+ ranks, while spears are optimal at 3+, so it's not best to stretch your pike formations out. But since they are the same unit size, the formation becomes square. Because of this compact formation, pikes can get flanked easier if you are not careful with your lines.
^^^What he said.
Aside from this vanilla pikemen are not that great a unit statistics wise. You're better off with Chivalric Sergeants every time. The Swiss variety are the only pikemen really worth training.
:bow:
^^^What he said. Get the swiss versions if you can, otherwise stick to CS spears or move to polearms. Pikes work great defending bridges or gates, and theoretically should be better than spears everywhere, but in practice their uses are limited.Quote:
Originally Posted by caravel
Aren't pikes much cheaper?
The vanilla Pikemen are just as expensive in maintenance as the Feudal and Chivalric Sergeants. The Swiss Pikemen are much cheaper (in maintenance, not in purchase). For me the main difference is the pikemen can be used offensive, while spears are purely defensive, but only the Swiss are any good in this offensive roll (and the Swiss Armoured Pikemen are even better). I like polearms better (again the Swiss Halberdiers are best, but the regular ones are not bad either) :2cents:Quote:
Aren't pikes much cheaper?
From FBE's Unit Guide:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vladimir
Pikemen - cost 250, upkeep 62
Swiss Pikemen - cost 525, upkeep 48
Swiss Armoured Pikemen - cost 750, upkeep 60
Chivalric Sergeants - cost 300, upkeep 62
Gothic Sergeants cost - 350, upkeep 62
Swiss pikes are pretty expensive, but normal pikes vs. chiv sergeants isn't that much of a difference.
Just mod them to 150 on normal like I did.
I generally find spears better than vanilla pikes for a few reasons.
1. Missile resistance. Most good spear units have 3 armour and a large shield giving them solid resistance to non AP missile attacks. Pikes have 1 armour and no shield. even vanilla archers will inflict bad losses on them.
2. Stats. as mentioned earlier Chiv Serg's and the like come with better defense stats meaning that even in full formation regular Pikemen with a full rank bonus still only end up the same in terms of defense though they do pack more counter attacking punch. Add in the armour difference, and Spears often live longer than Pikes, despite the extra rank bonuses the pikes get.
3. To be at max. effectiveness Pikes need to be in a deep column, making then very vulnerable to flanking and tough to use on attack where you have to turn and face changes in enemy positions. Getting them back in formation is very hard and frankly not really worth the effort except against cavalry.
4. You need to get the highest level building of the type to build them, so you won't get the +1 valour. Good Spears are made at the 3rd level building or lower so can always get this bonus, which is very handy, esp. the +2 morale.
5. Generally, I find polearm troops to be more effective than pikes in almost all ways, they kill cavalry better, do not need to be in ranks so are more manuverable, can face off against other infantry better and have better missile resistance, plus they can benefit from +1 valour.
Swiss Pikes are by far better than vanilla's, and I tend to use them 4-5 ranks deep similarly to spears, even though it means I don't get the max rank advantage once they strart dying. I find the wider front to be a better option and it makes them easier to use in a cohesive formation with other troops.
One other small problem with Pikes and their long deep formations is that they get eaten alive by artillery. a catapult hitting the front of the Pike unit will probably bounce at least once more through it, and those shots that initally miss willquite likely still hit part of the formation on the second bounce. This problem is compounded with multiple units of pikes side by side. 3 pike units side by side, with ranks 6 deep are going a gift from above to artillery and more or less equate to free valour increases.
Pikes to however do very well at holding a castle gate or bridge, though Halb's also do this well with their rock solid defense and high armour.
OK, thanks for all the help. now I know why spears are better(for most functions anyway)
Both units are garage unless you put them under high ranking generals or upgrade their armor.
Spears serve a purpose, especially the higher level ones that have a decent defense stat. I hated Spear units until I started playingon expert difficulty and couldn't rely on my sword units masacaring enemy spears anymore.
Now I use them myself as a mobile wall, and pinning unit. Their sole purpose it to tie up and enemy unit so I can flank it, but they do that job quite well. Chiv Sergeants and equivalent units are a good addition to your army. Point them at any unit that you think will put a hurting on you and then run another unit around to the side of it. while is fighting and slowly beating the spears, charge your flanker into the rear and sandwith the problem unit. even very strong units will fall under this pressure after a while.