European Union

I saw one of Nigel Farage's videos on YouTube due to a link in the Backroom Video Thread. While I've been pretty neutral on the EU before, hearing an actual counter-opinion on this issue for once has, I believe, opened my eyes a little more to what the European Union is. To be honest, I think I've lost a little respect for Angela Merkel as well - though not enough to vote SPD, Green, or FDP, of course.

So what do you think? Watch the videos for some interesting thoughts.

Nigel Farage on Tony Blair

Chicken Run

President's "Power Grab"

EDIT: I might as well state my opinion, as well as adding another video. While Germany is the most powerful member of the EU, I still think I'm against it to a certain extent, because:

1) We siphon off money to poorer nations in the EU.
2) The EU, as shown by the video below, seems "a little" corrupt.
3) I like the idea of nationalism - not nationalistic militarism, or nationalistic intolerance, but nationalism in the sense each nation must preserve it's own borders, culture, and sovereignty.

Who's Who in the EU

if you persist down this path you will be portrayed as 'swivel eyed' and 'a headbanger'. Cease and desist fithwith.

This message has been brought to you curtesy of the EU. You will obey.

Headbanger!

Yes, that video was interesting, but then it's not like other governments are a lot better, or in other words, the EU government consists of members of our governments etc blabla and in the end we just vote for this or that stupid idiotic new law/tax/younameit, whether it's on a local level, national level or EU level.
The good thing is that a few of the laws are actually not bad(just guessing, the good one prolly don't make it into the press).
But seriously, how often does someone who is elected actually solve the problems at hand in an effective, lasting or otherwise "good" way? :inquisitive:

Edited OP.

My position, added to the OP:

Quote:

---

1) We siphon off money to poorer nations in the EU.
2) The EU, as seen by the video below, seems "a little" corrupt.
3) I like the idea of nationalism - not nationalistic militarism, or nationalistic intolerance, but nationalism in the sense each nation must preserve it's own borders, culture, and sovereignty.

---

So, what do you think? Is the EU a corrupt, undemocratic mass, or not?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

My position, added to the OP:

---

Numbers 1 and 2 are why I like limiting the scope of our federal government.

Anyways I don't really have an opinion about the EU considering it doesn't really affect my sovereignty and every day life, but I do think a United Europe is in the best interest of Europeans, although I would be wary of an EU with too much power.

How very populistic of you to have doubts. Can't you see it's all for the better? EU roxxors and we all know what happened to the jews.

hmmm doesn't quite work when I do it...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice

Anyways I don't really have an opinion about the EU considering it doesn't really affect my sovereignty and every day life, but I do think a United Europe is in the best interest of Europeans, although I would be wary of an EU with too much power.

---

A United Europe is the whole reason the sovereignty argument comes up. A single-country EU takes away the sovereignty of it's components - I do not want Germany to become a state of the EU, albiet the most powerful one.

Sovereignty and a United Europe cannot coexist.

Why do you say it is in our best interests? The individual countries of Europe are already powerful, especially Germany and France.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by InsaneApache

if you persist down this path you will be portrayed as 'swivel eyed' and 'a headbanger'. Cease and desist fithwith.

This message has been brought to you curtesy of the EU. You will obey.

---

As an Englishman (I presume), what's you opinion on the EU?

I think it'll be more in favor of a Europe United, rather than a United Europe. The many nations have different cultural components, languages, and have a history of killing each other. To be fair, it's worked so far, but that's because the EU has some power, but not enough to threaten any one nation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I think it'll be more in favor of a Europe United, rather than a United Europe. The many nations have different cultural components, languages, and have a history of killing each other. To be fair, it's worked so far, but that's because the EU has some power, but not enough to threaten any one nation.

---

But with the Lisbon Treaty, for example, the power of the EU can increase drastically (watch the videos). Europe worked just fine before the EU, did it not?

Well, that's the interesting part. Conventional thinking would say that uniting forces would improve everyone's chances. NATO, UN, coalitions, confederacies. This is another step on the road to globalisms. However, the EU may be driving global unity rather than following it.

In my thinking, everyone's okay with the trade agreements, but unwilling to surrender their sovereignty or really try to become 'European'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

Well, that's the interesting part. Conventional thinking would say that uniting forces would improve everyone's chances. NATO, UN, coalitions, confederacies. This is another step on the road to globalisms. However, the EU may be driving global unity rather than following it.

---

Quite. However, there is the philosophy that if everyone is equally rich, then everyone becomes poor.

That being said, the EU is trying to force the unity of Europe, instead of letting it either go at it's own pace, or not happen at all.

Quote:

---

In my thinking, everyone's okay with the trade agreements, but unwilling to surrender their sovereignty or really try to become 'European'.

---

That is essentially the entire issue. Free trade and travel among EU citizens is something I have no problem with (until illegal immigration rears it's ugly head), and, indeed, is what the nations originally signed on to. However, the EU is gradually wearing away our sovereignty, and, as you can see above, is not exactly taking the most democratic measures in doing so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Why do you say it is in our best interests? The individual countries of Europe are already powerful, especially Germany and France.

---

There is strength in numbers, unless you enjoy being a patsy under NATO.

Quote:

---

A United Europe is the whole reason the sovereignty argument comes up. A single-country EU takes away the sovereignty of it's components - I do not want Germany to become a state of the EU, albiet the most powerful one.

---

Hence my comment of an EU with too much power.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice

There is strength in numbers, unless you enjoy being a patsy under NATO.

---

Yes, but I'd prefer being a little less strong than losing my sovereignty. I mean, Germany's already the most powerful country in the EU, so why would I complain otherwise?

Also, Germany is the second or third strongest nation in NATO, definitely behind America, and possibly behind Britain. NATO also does not threaten our sovereignty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Yes, but I'd prefer being a little less strong than losing my sovereignty. I mean, Germany's already the most powerful country in the EU, so why would I complain otherwise?

---

And then, some guy from Bavaria should definitely start to think that people from the East Part of Germany are Siphoning their Money.... And that Germany takes its sovereignty.

But wait a moment, those from Fustenfeldbruck.. Aren't they taking money (and sovereignty) from Munich?

If I go back to my country, I really think that a long time ago, some "conservative, what for anyway people" were saying, in several Regions, that "France" was abusing their sovereignty, etc, etc....

So when speaking of "nation" you should speak in temrms of history as well. As you are German and I French, what about Alsace/Elsatz. It's been german, french, german...

You are now "protecting" some limits that were rejected before.

My opinion on that subject is that having corrupted chiefs is bad, but does not mean that we don't need one. And that to avoid to have people grumbling that some bureaucrat from the "region capital/country capital/continent capital" shouldn't decide for them, we should have good local "governments": say , a city responsible for it's roads, a region for its airport, etc, etc... Maybe with some "solidarity" between people. So as to avoid to have poor regions / Rich regions having arguments. (think of belgium)

So a strong European Union is something we need. An to our american friends, please: why being wary of a strong Europe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caerfanan

An to our american friends, please: why being wary of a strong Europe?

---

I think most of those American's expressing doubt are also wary of a strong America, in the sense of a strong federal government. The idea is that the more local a government is, the more accurately it follows the will of its members (considering the deficiencies of some local governments, that may be debatable, but a local government would certainly be easier to change or overthrow if its citizens got sufficiently riled up), so governments higher in the hierarchy should be as comparatively weak as is reasonably possible.

Ajax

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

As an Englishman (I presume), what's you opinion on the EU?

---

I've made my position clear on this issue several times over the last 6 years or so, however to recap....

The EU is being driven by a political elite that cares not one jot for democracy or transparency. Untruths, corruption, overregulation and gerrymandring occur on an unprecedented scale.

Time after time referendums have been held that directly counter the elites preferred route. Single currency, Nice treaty, EU constitution ad infinitum have all been put to referenda and have all been rejected by the electorate. Only for the elite to ignore or more perversely hold referendum after referendum until the voter give the 'right' answer.

A good example is when the UK joined the 'Common Market'. I thought this was a splendid idea, free movement and trade within the zone. We were told in 1975 when we had our referendum that this is all it would be. A free trading bloc. This was patently not true. The EEC became the EC, which then morphed into the EU. This is not what we were asked to vote on, it was a lie.

It's a bit like a political party putting a promise in it's manifesto and then when elected reneging on its commitment......oh wait....

I rest my case.

If that wasn't enough,

http://www.amazon.com/Eurabia-Euro-A.../dp/083864077X

^-essential reading

ah http://books.google.nl/books?id=hfK9...bnail#PPA10,M1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

EDIT: I might as well state my opinion, as well as adding another video. While Germany is the most powerful member of the EU, I still think I'm against it to a certain extent, because:

1) We siphon off money to poorer nations in the EU.
2) The EU, as seen by the video below, seems "a little" corrupt.
3) I like the idea of nationalism - not nationalistic militarism, or nationalistic intolerance, but nationalism in the sense each nation must preserve it's own borders, culture, and sovereignty.

---

haha, i have been of this view for a long time now. :)

Quote:

---

The EU is being driven by a political elite that cares not one jot for democracy or transparency. Untruths, corruption, overregulation and gerrymandring occur on an unprecedented scale.

---

that’s politics,
There all a bunch of money sucking ,bigheaded *****
Learn to live with it or get in the there and fix it!

Quote:

---

Time after time referendums have been held that directly counter the elites preferred route. Single currency, Nice treaty, EU constitution ad infinitum have all been put to referenda and have all been rejected by the electorate. Only for the elite to ignore or more perversely hold referendum after referendum until the voter give the 'right' answer.

---

Although I'm a firm believer in democracy, referendums are totally moronic on this scale and shouldn't even been held.
The masses are stupid and very influential.
To much factors involved that can influence the outcome.
from present day politics in ones own country to did or did you not stump your toe on the way to the bathroom this morning?!
Besides to cast a vote like that one,one has to be firmly informed in the why's and why not’s .I seriously very much doubt that even 50 % of the people had any idea what they where voting pro or contra for.

Quote:

---

A good example is when the UK joined the 'Common Market'. I thought this was a splendid idea, free movement and trade within the zone. We were told in 1975 when we had our referendum that this is all it would be. A free trading bloc. This was patently not true. The EEC became the EC, which then morphed into the EU. This is not what we were asked to vote on, it was a lie.

---

Face the facts
you cant expect to have a voice in the world when going against upcoming power blocks like China or India.
Then you have reviving and starting in showing its teeth again Russia.
You got to have money and muscle to do that with a huge population to back it up.
Even the UK some day must wake up and see that the empire of past is gone!
Although everyone still cherishes a great amount of respect towards the uk and some scraps still remain, (this will not last forever) it really is gone!
You want to be a small piece of zilch and listen to and playing by the big boy's rules fine,i don’t!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Pixel is loosing his patience, i apologize.

It’s far from perfect, nothing is but it’s a fine idea and I’ll say it again: If all these variations of cultures can prove being able in working towards a same goal a same direction it’s the only provide evidence mankind has in not blowing itself up into thousands of smithereens.

I’m pro EU in case you where still pondering that one Evil_Maniac. :yes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caerfanan

And then, some guy from Bavaria should definitely start to think that people from the East Part of Germany are Siphoning their Money.... And that Germany takes its sovereignty.

---

Eastern Germany is a drain on the West, but, nonetheless, they are German, and deserve aid.

There is a small faction that thinks Bavaria deserves sovereignty, but Bavarians are German. They have had the opportunity to split, and haven't. That example doesn't ring.

Quote:

---

So when speaking of "nation" you should speak in temrms of history as well. As you are German and I French, what about Alsace/Elsatz. It's been german, french, german...

---

You want my frank answer? It's been German for longer. However, I believe that the populace of that region should be given a referendum and the right to choose between Germany, France, and being an autonomous state, if they so desire.

Quote:

---

You are now "protecting" some limits that were rejected before.

---

How?

Quote:

---

Maybe with some "solidarity" between people. So as to avoid to have poor regions / Rich regions having arguments. (think of belgium)

---

That's how it's always worked. It is my personal belief that everyone cannot be rich or equal in terms of money, land, etc. We don't need to be united - all we'll achieve then is strong seperatist factions, like those that already exist in Spain, Kosovo, and Quebec.

Europe, in the last fifty years, has been stable. This has preserved our cultural identities, our sovereignty as a nation, our right to choose our own laws, and our right to keep our own money if we so choose.

The EU has no right to do this for us, anymore than the UN has the right to rule the world.

Unity is not necessarily the best thing.

We do not need a strong European Union - we need, at most, a European discussion forum, and European cooperation - not unity.

The EU will never work, for the simple fact that Europe is one of the most diverse continents in terms of culture, language, and tradition. What's more, the EU is based on a common "European idea". There is no common European idea. Europeans don't think of themselves as Europeans, they think of themselves as British, Germans, Croatians, Russians etc.

@ Upxl The arguments you put forward do not justify the rush to turn Europe into a country. Indeed they only reinforce my position that Europe should be a trading bloc no more. You're just arguing against yourself.

As for the 'people' being too stupid to decide they're own fate, you don't happen to be left wing do you? :sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Europe worked just fine before the EU, did it not?

---

You're not forgetting those 15 centuries of bloodshed are you?

I doubt the EU is to blame for the long lasting peace. :clown:

Oh I guess they have scared the beejezus out of me over nothing then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ignoramus

The EU will never work, for the simple fact that Europe is one of the most diverse continents in terms of culture, language, and tradition. What's more, the EU is based on a common "European idea". There is no common European idea. Europeans don't think of themselves as Europeans, they think of themselves as British, Germans, Croatians, Russians etc.

---

Ignoramus hit the nail on the head with this one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conradus

You're not forgetting those 15 centuries of bloodshed are you?

---

Of course not, but it happened everywhere at one point, now didn't it? War was considered acceptable diplomacy, and the EU had nothing to do with Europe now being at peace. That is my point.

Quote:

---

Upxl The arguments you put forward do not justify the rush to turn Europe into a country. Indeed they only reinforce my position that Europe should be a trading bloc no more. You're just arguing against yourself.

---

Yes, a nice clever remark to make Insane.
I bow at your wisdom and insight.:bow:

Quote:

---

As for the 'people' being too stupid to decide they're own fate, you don't happen to be left wing do you?

---

History has proven my statement to be true.
The future will do nothing less and i aint no commi if that’s what your asking.

Quote:

---

The EU will never work, for the simple fact that Europe is one of the most diverse continents in terms of culture, language, and tradition.

---

Bullocks bullocks bullocks.
Look a little bit further and you see that our cultures are not that different.
I’ve been almost to every single country in Europe and I’ve also been to many places beyond its borders.
You want to know what a different culture is?…India is a different culture my friend ,Japan, China Africa, S-America,… those are different cultures!
Look a little bit further and you’ll see that our differences are really minute.
Besides as far as I’m concerned this is no argument.
Were all still humans, that should be more then sufficient.

Language, as I said I’ve been to almost every country in the EU and I got bye pretty fine.
Not ones had to get my dictionary out, after a while I stopped bothering buying one.
Reason? ENGLISH mate!
What does it matter really, those different languages you can get bye everywhere nowadays certainly in Europe with English.
And this will only improve.

Tradition,… for goodness sake, seriously? .
I have a tradition of urinating in the bushes in my street when I come home from a drinking night,that doesn’t mean I’ll go knocking on my neighbours doors and order them to follow my example.
They and I don’t care.

Quote:

---

What's more, the EU is based on a common "European idea". There is no common European idea.

---

Want an idea I’ll give you an Idea...
No wait, i guess peace would be a way too simpel and naïve thing to say.
Nonetheless my answer is at least as ridiculous as your statement.

Quote:

---

Europeans don't think of themselves as Europeans, they think of themselves as British, Germans, Croatians, Russians etc.

---

Speak for yourself.
I’m European first, Belgian second.
And I know I’m not alone in this.
Besides;“we made Europa now we must make Europeans.” A very clever man said this.
Only a matter of time anyway

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I really am sorry for being this aggressive :shame: