What do you mean by "Legion?"

I was wondering what Romani players mean by "Legion?" I've played the Romani for a while now. Unless I am doing something "wrong" (always possible), it seems the AI has no problem exceeding 20 units in a "stack," but "I" can not [THAT is a separate but related question, BTW]. Excepting the general (unless you try to fight without one!), that leaves me 19 units. If each 80-man (60 men if Accensi) unit is a "maniple" (80 men in the 1st to 3rd Centuries was a "century!), then I need 40 such units, not 19, just to make the basic legion, and then not counting any "auxiliaries."

Would I be correct in assuming you guys are using the term "legion" rather loosely for something that approximates the "feel" and "proportions" of a legion, but not its specific "numbers?" After all, a legion ought to have something like 5 or 6000 men, and my best stacks only run to about 1900, and that's when I load up with 120-man units like Rorarii and auxiliary Gallic levees from Bononia!!!

T'anks! :book:

Try playing on huge unit size, which increases the number of soldiers in a unit, but remember that even with that the ratio of ingame to historical is not 1:1, that would be impossible. Battles were fought with 100,000s of soldiers, not the thousands that RTW allows.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Come in Nighthawk

AI has no problem exceeding 20 units in a "stack," but "I" can not [THAT is a separate but related question, BTW]

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No it cant, it just look like it. Its hard to explain.. but on the campain map, if you double click a enemy army, a 20 unit stack will look like this:

00000000
00000000
00

each "zero" representing a unit card. If you look quickly it looks like 22 units, but if you count its only 20! Hope that made sense! :sweatdrop: :wall:

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Originally Posted by Come in Nighthawk

After all, a legion ought to have something like 5 or 6000 men, and my best stacks only run to about 1900, and that's when I load up with 120-man units like Rorarii and auxiliary Gallic levees from Bononia!!!

T'anks! :book:

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Legions were supposed to have that strength on paper! They might have had that size when they were established and at opportune times (like just before a major campaign), but probabely rarely ever were at full strength...

A strength report of a cohort of most likely miliaria status, perhaps even miliaria equitata (so double strength of a regular auxilia cohort with perhaps a few cavalry squadrons integrated), so roughly 1000 men on paper reports less the 750! Including a sizeable number of those as 'sick'

And late Roman legions were only around 1000-12000 strong (full strength on paper) :inquisitive: :inquisitive: :idea2: :idea2:

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Originally Posted by Michiel de Ruyter

Legions were supposed to have that strength on paper! They might have had that size when they were established and at opportune times (like just before a major campaign), but probabely rarely ever were at full strength...

A strength report of a cohort of most likely miliaria status, perhaps even miliaria equitata (so double strength of a regular auxilia cohort with perhaps a few cavalry squadrons integrated), so roughly 1000 men on paper reports less the 750! Including a sizeable number of those as 'sick'

And late Roman legions were only around 1000-12000 strong (full strength on paper) :inquisitive: :inquisitive: :idea2: :idea2:

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Yes, I know all that; I have been reading Graham Webster, etc., for about 30 years now. I find the various strength reports you refer to, and including the relatively-recently-published "tablets" from Vindolanda, absolutely fascinating stuff -- but then I find monthly strength reports for the US Army from the 1920s fascinating!! :laugh4:

I do appreciate the answer nonetheless, and perhaps, given the answer, I didn't express my question well enough... The earlier replies came closer to addressing my real issue... It is obviously a "game" issue; there is just so much you can do to approach "historical realism" and still have a workable "game." Got it.

:book:

My working theory:

Normal Unit Size - 1 man in R:TW = 40 men in real life.
Large Unit Size - 1 man in R:TW = 20 men in real life.
Huge Unit Size - 1 man in R:TW = 10 men in real life.

A full Roman stack of 20 units for me equals a consular army of 2 legions and 2 allied legions. At Cannae there were two consular armies joined together, so that's two Roman stacks fighting in the same battle.

Thats about how i realise it too Titus, i multiply by 20 when im writing in my AAR, so if i had 1000, id say the 20 000 strong army, etc.

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Originally Posted by Titus Marcellus Scato

A full Roman stack of 20 units for me equals a consular army of 2 legions and 2 allied legions.

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The same for me, what makes 5 units for a Legion. One Legion alone doesn't really work because you would need some 1/2 units for it: Camillan skirmish infantry, Polybian Triarii and the cavalry. Therefore I always use "double Legions" with 10 units in-game (or 9+FM).

This is what I do to get "my legion":

3 armies of the full 20 units consisting basically 2 velites, 3 hastati, 3 principles, 3 triarii, 1 archers, 2 rorarii, 1 accensi,2 samnite spear or heavy inf., 2 equites cons., and 1 one general unit.
1 reserve army to fill gaps in units.

On the campaign map I keep these close together and when commencing battle or attacked upon, I truly have a full legion to my disposal.
It's comes close to an unbeatable lot...

The total is about 6,000 (including the reserve-army)

Recruitement takes about four and a half years (18 turns in the game!) and yes, costs alot of money! but after that, you're ready to take on any concentration of armies.

Ofcourse battle tactics should be smart and generals excellent.

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Originally Posted by Lovejoy

No it cant, it just look like it. Its hard to explain.. but on the campain map, if you double click a enemy army, a 20 unit stack will look like this:

00000000
00000000
00

each "zero" representing a unit card. If you look quickly it looks like 22 units, but if you count its only 20! Hope that made sense! :sweatdrop: :wall:

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I have been playing this game for quite some time and I have always assumed that there were 22 units in the enemy stack. Shame on me for being too lazy to count.

Why not make the units larger (4x-10x more than huge)? You can also manipulate the city populations and sizes can you not?

The problem with lesser performing PCs could be manage by scaling the unit sizes differently.

I am pretty sure the unit numbers are hard coded... Though I might be wrong because I don't remember any 240 man units in vanilla.

Yeah, I'd say they are, but you can always hope. I mean there are 240 sized right on down, and 3 officers with some units.

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Originally Posted by Kravixon

Why not make the units larger (4x-10x more than huge)? You can also manipulate the city populations and sizes can you not?

The problem with lesser performing PCs could be manage by scaling the unit sizes differently.

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None of those options are possible.

Foot

Besides, do you have a system that can take 70 000 men on the battlefield? Mine can only take 6400 MAX

4 Velites + 4 Hastatii + 4 Principes + 1 FM + 2 Equites + 2 Triarii + 3 regional units. This is my Polybian era Consular Legion, it´ll take down anything.

I play on huge and pretty much consider 10 untis a legion. Anything less and it gets hard to play since you lose pretty much all your flexibility.

I play on Large and consider a fullstack a legion. I like having "centuries" that I can command, and since each have their own Centurion as the officer. And as for the fact that real battles in Antiquity involved tens of thousands of men on either side... I just dont think about it.

I have a Legion, and I have a legio. The legio is 2 hastati, 2 principes and 1 triarii, with 2 alae (identical groupings of 3 foreign units, or a third legio) and cavalry attached on. The whole thing makes a Legion (fullstack) in my reckoning.

Which reminds me, how did the Greeks/Celts/Qarthadastim/Steppe/Eastern factions refer to their armies in their native language? I should like to write the indigenous equivalent of the word 'army' instead of, you know, 'army' in my notebook when referring to my standing forces. Like I always refer to my Legions as Legio II Rhaetia etc, for example. As I understand it the Greeks called an army 'stratos' so First Army would be something like 'Stratos protos'?